Re: Israeli officer: I was right to shoot 13-year-old child

rgoldman_at_bellsouth.net
Date: 11/29/04 

Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:41:33 -0500

Really? Do you have facts?
I don't think so . and what experience do you have in the middle east?
None as far as anyone can tell

"who_cares" <too_many_rookiesNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:v0lmq0l38p9dovgqdt0u2m4drfdpne09ld@4ax.com...
> You just think you lie good.
> People with brains see through your ***.
>
> Give it up.
>
>
> On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:35:11 -0500, <rgoldman@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>
> >The PA raises it's kids to want to die, guys like me stop them from
taking
> >Israelis with them.
> >but then moronic brainless fools such as yourself never figure it out and
> >just make false claims
> >
> >"who_cares" <too_many_rookiesNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >news:jpelq0hg3a9rhhs7884nlg52e6n11v239m@4ax.com...
> >> Hey you POS.....Israel is the ONLY country in the world who is
> >> persecuting and terrorizing its neighbors on a regular basis.
> >>
> >> NOW who loves terrorists?
> >>
> >> Thankfully turds like you are in the minority and getting smaller
> >> each and every day.
> >>
> >>
> >> On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 02:40:19 -0500, <rgoldman@bellsouth.net> wrote:
> >>
> >> >only by the terrorist loving few like yourself ass clown
> >> >
> >> >--
> >> >"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
> >> >R.J. Goldman
> >> >
> >> >http://www.usidfvets.com
> >> >
> >> >and
> >> >
> >> >http://www.stopfcc.com
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"who_cares" <too_many_rookiesNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message
> >> >news:pptaq0dnrdb9lav26kvp0r5aifkbpdogr5@4ax.com...
> >> >> Morals???
> >> >> They have the morals of HITLER!!
> >> >>
> >> >> They aren't called ZioNazis for nothing.
> >> >>
> >> >> =========================================================
> >> >>
> >> >> On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:03:50 -0500, "Riain Y. Barton"
<riain@riain.us>
> >> >> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >> >Amazing how in Israel, there are investigations, and laws and
rules,
> >> >moral
> >> >> >codes, yet they have to deal with an enemy that do not follow any
of
> >> >these
> >> >> >things, and the world remains silent.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >=========================
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Nov. 24, 2004 21:57 | Updated Nov. 25, 2004 0:32
> >> >> >Analysis: Confirming the kill
> >> >> >By ARIEH O'SULLIVAN
> >> >> >
> >> >> >In the IDF there is an expression, "Lo vaditah, lo asitah," (If you
> >> >didn't
> >> >> >verify it then you didn't do it).
> >> >> >
> >> >> >In the complicated environment the IDF finds itself today, it is
> >> >difficult
> >> >> >to say just whether the scandalous "verifying the kill" court
martial
> >> >going
> >> >> >on now is more than an isolated incident.
> >> >> >Were it not for the disgruntled soldiers in the Givati auxiliary
> >company
> >> >in
> >> >> >the Gaza Strip, the entire incident may have remained just another
> >unit's
> >> >> >dirty laundry, likely never to see the light of day.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >The latest Givati scandal has wracked the army and the state and
has
> >> >pushed
> >> >> >aside reports of IDF successes in preventing terror. It has raised
> >> >questions
> >> >> >about the very soul of the IDF. Did a combat captain "verify" the
> >death
> >> >of a
> >> >> >13-year-old Palestinian girl and how much is this behavior
prevalent
> >in
> >> >the
> >> >> >army today?
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"The truth is, that every conflict, and in this case, every
intefadeh,
> >> >> >brings with it their own troubles," said Brig.-Gen. (res.) Amnon
> >> >Straschnov,
> >> >> >a former IDF advocate general and retired Tel Aviv District Court
> >judge.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Straschnov said the incident was a "blemish on the combat ethos of
the
> >> >IDF."
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"But I wouldn't see this a very wide spread phenomena that has
> >infected
> >> >all
> >> >> >the IDF units," Straschnov said.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Still, there is a sense that something may be rotten in the IDF,
now
> >> >> >entering its fifth year of fighting an urban guerrilla war against
the
> >> >> >Palestinian terrorists operating amid innocent civilians.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >The discussions of late have dealt mainly with if the captain shot,
> >when
> >> >he
> >> >> >shot and how much did he shoot. They do not deal with the deeper
> >> >questions
> >> >> >such as how, according to leaked radio transmissions of the
incident;
> >> >some
> >> >> >soldiers opened fire on a girl even though they know they aren't
> >supposed
> >> >to
> >> >> >shoot at girls.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"The behavior of the soldiers is problematic," Straschnov said in
an
> >> >> >interview on Army radio. "Either some of them made false
accusations
> >> >against
> >> >> >the CO, as he claims and which will be clarified in the court
martial,
> >or
> >> >> >they lent a hand to shooting at an innocent girl and kept silent
about
> >> >it.
> >> >> >Then, and only because of some issues they had previously against
the
> >CO,
> >> >> >they said what they said. And apparently they didn't tell all of
the
> >> >truth
> >> >> >in the debriefings."
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"This isn't as bad as the alleged shooting and verifying the kill
of
> >the
> >> >> >girl, but it is certainly a phenomena that the IDF chief of general
> >staff
> >> >> >needs to address when it comes to the credibility of debriefings,
> >which
> >> >to
> >> >> >my great regret have not proven to be very credible lately,"
> >Straschnov
> >> >> >said.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >The IDF has proudly spotlighted its purity of arms. The common held
> >> >belief
> >> >> >is that accusations by the Arabs, often echoed by the world media,
> >that
> >> >the
> >> >> >army violates this by collective punishments, harming civilians,
> >> >mistreating
> >> >> >prisoners and even mutilating the bodies of dead terrorists, are
just
> >> >plain
> >> >> >defamation against Israel.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Purity is difficult to preserve, particularly when your enemy
follows
> >a
> >> >> >different set of rules.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >The IDF has followed a strict moral code and even indirect
violation
> >from
> >> >it
> >> >> >causes a strong public outcry. This was seen in the case of Sabra
and
> >> >> >Chatilla, when the IDF command allowed Christian Phalangist
militiamen
> >> >into
> >> >> >the Palestinian refugee camps in Beirut in 1982 who subsequently
> >> >massacred
> >> >> >hundreds of innocent people.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >The IDF code of ethics actually spells out when one can shoot an
enemy
> >> >and
> >> >> >when it would be considered illegal to shoot them.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >The term "verifying the kill," has been twisted over the years by
> >> >soldiers
> >> >> >to mean a confirmation that their duty was accomplished and not
> >necessary
> >> >> >executing anyone.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"It is a slang expression by the soldiers who don't truly
understand
> >what
> >> >> >they are supposed to do when their lives are in danger," said Prof.
> >Assa
> >> >> >Kasher, who drafted the IDF code of ethics.
> >> >> >He said that shooting one's enemy is an objective issue defined by
the
> >> >level
> >> >> >of danger they present and it is not a matter of intuition.
> >> >> >"Sometimes you have to shoot to kill. But you when a man is lying
down
> >> >> >wounded you don't do actions to be on the safe side, you do actions
> >> >> >according one's consideration if there is danger or not," Kasher
said.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"There is no such thing as plugging two more bullets into someone's
> >head
> >> >to
> >> >> >be on the safe side. There is no ethical, moral or legal permission
to
> >do
> >> >> >this," Kasher said.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >The modern Givati Brigade has borne the brunt of the conflict with
the
> >> >> >Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. They have seen their comrades blown
to
> >> >bits
> >> >> >in the Zeitun refugee camp and then Palestinians parading around in
a
> >> >frenzy
> >> >> >with their body parts. This, it turns out, has been the experience
of
> >the
> >> >> >brigade since the beginning of the state.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >Col. (ret.) Yitzhak Pundak, one of the founders of the Givati
brigade
> >and
> >> >> >commander of the 53rd battalion in the War of Independence, said
the
> >> >> >phenomenon of "verifying the kill" was always known in war. But he
was
> >> >> >adamant that it never happened in his battalion.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"Every time the Arabs would come upon one of our wounded men they
> >would
> >> >kill
> >> >> >them," Pundak said. "One time, we came upon four of our soldiers
left
> >> >behind
> >> >> >and they had been decapitated. We later saw that the Arabs had
stuck
> >> >their
> >> >> >heads on stakes in the city of Majdal (Ashkelon)."
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"It's hard for a soldier to remain moral after seeing such things,
but
> >we
> >> >> >did," Pundak said. "There were no IDF rules and we didn't have the
> >media
> >> >or
> >> >> >lawyers around us back then. Still, I can assure you that none in
my
> >unit
> >> >> >broke the rules of war."
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"This episode with the Gavati soldiers bothers me. I think that
this
> >> >thing
> >> >> >needs to be rooted out. I can understand the fighters today and the
> >way
> >> >they
> >> >> >are being eroded and the risk of deviating from normality."
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"The IDF needs to be sacred. They can't use their weapons like the
> >Arabs
> >> >do.
> >> >> >This verifying the kill, if it indeed happened, is forbidden," he
> >said.
> >> >> >
> >> >> >"torresD" <torresd30@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >> >> >news:Crbpd.767$Ua.184@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
> >> >> >| Israeli officer: I was right to shoot 13-year-old child
> >> >> >| http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1358173,00.html
> >> >> >| Israeli officer: I was right to shoot 13-year-old child
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| Radio exchange contradicts army version of Gaza killing
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| Chris McGreal in Jerusalem
> >> >> >| Wednesday November 24, 2004
> >> >> >| The Guardian
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| An Israeli army officer who repeatedly
> >> >> >| shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in
> >> >> >| Gaza dismissed a warning from another
> >> >> >| soldier that she was a child by saying
> >> >> >| he would have killed her even if she
> >> >> >| was three years old.
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| The officer,
> >> >> >| identified by the army only as Captain R,
> >> >> >| was charged this week with illegal use
> >> >> >| of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer
> >> >> >| and other relatively minor infractions after
> >> >> >| emptying all 10 bullets from his gun's magazine
> >> >> >| into Iman al-Hams when she walked into a
> >> >> >| "security area" on the edge of Rafah
> >> >> >| refugee camp last month.
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| A tape recording of radio exchanges
> >> >> >| between soldiers involved in the incident,
> >> >> >| played on Israeli television,
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| contradicts the army's account of
> >> >> >| the events and appears to show that
> >> >> >| the captain shot the girl in cold blood.
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| The official account claimed that Iman
> >> >> >| was shot as she walked towards an army
> >> >> >| post with her schoolbag because soldiers
> >> >> >| feared she was carrying a bomb.
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| But the tape recording of the radio
> >> >> >| conversation between soldiers at the
> >> >> >| scene reveals that,
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| from the beginning,
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| she was identified as a child and
> >> >> >| at no point was a bomb spoken about
> >> >> >| nor was she described as a threat.
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| Iman was also at least 100 yards from any soldier.
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| Instead, the tape shows that the soldiers
> >> >> >| swiftly identified her as a "girl of about
> >> >> >| 10" who was "scared to death".
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| The tape also reveals that the
> >> >> >| soldiers said Iman was headed eastwards,
> >> >> >| away from the army post and back into
> >> >> >| the refugee camp, when she was shot.
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| At that point,
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| Captain R took the unusual
> >> >> >| decision to leave the post in
> >> >> >| pursuit of the girl.
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| He shot her dead and then
> >> >> >| "confirmed the kill" by
> >> >> >| emptying his magazine into
> >> >> >| her body.
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| The tape recording is of a three-way
> >> >> >| conversation between the army watchtower,
> >> >> >| the army post's operations room and the
> >> >> >| captain, who was a company commander.
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| The soldier in the watchtower radioed
> >> >> >| his colleagues after he saw Iman:
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| "It's a little girl.
> >> >> >| She's running defensively eastward."
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| Operations room:
> >> >> >| "Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?"
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| Watchtower:
> >> >> >| "A girl of about 10, she's behind
> >> >> >| the embankment, scared to death."
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| A few minutes later,
> >> >> >| Iman is shot in the leg
> >> >> >| from one of the army posts.
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| The watchtower:
> >> >> >| "I think that one of the positions took her out."
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| The company commander then moves
> >> >> >| in as Iman lies wounded and helpless.
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| Captain R:
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| "I and another soldier ...
> >> >> >| are going in a little nearer,
> >> >> >| forward, to confirm the kill ...
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| Receive a situation report.
> >> >> >| We fired and killed her ...
> >> >> >| I also confirmed the kill. Over."
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| Witnesses described how the
> >> >> >| captain shot Iman twice in the head,
> >> >> >| walked away, turned back and fired a
> >> >> >| stream of bullets into her body.
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| Doctors at Rafah's hospital said
> >> >> >| she had been shot at least 17 times.
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| On the tape, the company commander
> >> >> >| then "clarifies" why he killed Iman:
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| "This is commander.
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| Anything that's mobile,
> >> >> >| that moves in the zone,
> >> >> >| even if it's a three-year-old,
> >> >> >| needs to be killed. Over."
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| The army's original account of the
> >> >> >| killing said that the soldiers only
> >> >> >| identified Iman as a child after she
> >> >> >| was first shot.
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| But the tape shows that they were
> >> >> >| aware just how young the small,
> >> >> >| slight girl was before any shots were fired.
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| The case came to light after soldiers
> >> >> >| under the command of Captain R went to
> >> >> >| an Israeli newspaper to accuse the
> >> >> >| army of covering up the circumstances
> >> >> >| of the killing.
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| A subsequent investigation by the
> >> >> >| officer responsible for the Gaza strip,
> >> >> >| Major General Dan Harel,
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| concluded that the captain
> >> >> >| had "not acted unethically".
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| However,
> >> >> >| the military police
> >> >> >| launched an investigation,
> >> >> >| which resulted in charges
> >> >> >| against the unit commander.
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| Iman's parents have accused the army
> >> >> >| of whitewashing the affair by filing
> >> >> >| minor charges against Captain R.
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| They want him prosecuted for murder.
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| Record of a shooting
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| Watchtower
> >> >> >| 'It's a little girl.
> >> >> >| She's running defensively eastward'
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| Operations room
> >> >> >| 'Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?'
> >> >> >| Watchtower
> >> >> >| 'A girl of about 10,
> >> >> >| she's behind the embankment, scared to death'
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >| Captain R (after killing the girl)
> >> >> >| 'Anything moving in the zone,
> >> >> >| even a three-year-old, needs to be killed'
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >|
> >> >> >|
> >> >>
> >> >
> >>
> >
>

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