Re: Israeli officer: I was right to shoot 13-year-old child

From: who_cares (too_many_rookiesNOSPAM_at_yahoo.com)
Date: 11/29/04 

Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2004 20:24:58 GMT

Your words alone will suffice as my
"Exhibit A" that you are nothing but a buffoon.

Hint.... try to stay away from ZioNazi propaganda
if you want to learn the truth. The real truth of
what is happening is not hard to learn. It's too
bad.... but the truth that you don't want out is slowly
getting out.

University professors know the truth. Most of the rest of
the civilized world know the truth and what is really
going on re: the Palestinian - Israel conflict.

Give it up, ZioNazi. The comfort of your *** buddies
will do you know good.

On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 13:41:33 -0500, <rgoldman@bellsouth.net> wrote:

>Really? Do you have facts?
>I don't think so . and what experience do you have in the middle east?
>None as far as anyone can tell
>
>"who_cares" <too_many_rookiesNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>news:v0lmq0l38p9dovgqdt0u2m4drfdpne09ld@4ax.com...
>> You just think you lie good.
>> People with brains see through your ***.
>>
>> Give it up.
>>
>>
>> On Mon, 29 Nov 2004 07:35:11 -0500, <rgoldman@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>
>> >The PA raises it's kids to want to die, guys like me stop them from
>taking
>> >Israelis with them.
>> >but then moronic brainless fools such as yourself never figure it out and
>> >just make false claims
>> >
>> >"who_cares" <too_many_rookiesNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >news:jpelq0hg3a9rhhs7884nlg52e6n11v239m@4ax.com...
>> >> Hey you POS.....Israel is the ONLY country in the world who is
>> >> persecuting and terrorizing its neighbors on a regular basis.
>> >>
>> >> NOW who loves terrorists?
>> >>
>> >> Thankfully turds like you are in the minority and getting smaller
>> >> each and every day.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> On Thu, 25 Nov 2004 02:40:19 -0500, <rgoldman@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> >only by the terrorist loving few like yourself ass clown
>> >> >
>> >> >--
>> >> >"I have seen the worst that man can do.and I can still laugh loudly"
>> >> >R.J. Goldman
>> >> >
>> >> >http://www.usidfvets.com
>> >> >
>> >> >and
>> >> >
>> >> >http://www.stopfcc.com
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> >"who_cares" <too_many_rookiesNOSPAM@yahoo.com> wrote in message
>> >> >news:pptaq0dnrdb9lav26kvp0r5aifkbpdogr5@4ax.com...
>> >> >> Morals???
>> >> >> They have the morals of HITLER!!
>> >> >>
>> >> >> They aren't called ZioNazis for nothing.
>> >> >>
>> >> >> =========================================================
>> >> >>
>> >> >> On Wed, 24 Nov 2004 22:03:50 -0500, "Riain Y. Barton"
><riain@riain.us>
>> >> >> wrote:
>> >> >>
>> >> >> >Amazing how in Israel, there are investigations, and laws and
>rules,
>> >> >moral
>> >> >> >codes, yet they have to deal with an enemy that do not follow any
>of
>> >> >these
>> >> >> >things, and the world remains silent.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >=========================
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Nov. 24, 2004 21:57 | Updated Nov. 25, 2004 0:32
>> >> >> >Analysis: Confirming the kill
>> >> >> >By ARIEH O'SULLIVAN
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >In the IDF there is an expression, "Lo vaditah, lo asitah," (If you
>> >> >didn't
>> >> >> >verify it then you didn't do it).
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >In the complicated environment the IDF finds itself today, it is
>> >> >difficult
>> >> >> >to say just whether the scandalous "verifying the kill" court
>martial
>> >> >going
>> >> >> >on now is more than an isolated incident.
>> >> >> >Were it not for the disgruntled soldiers in the Givati auxiliary
>> >company
>> >> >in
>> >> >> >the Gaza Strip, the entire incident may have remained just another
>> >unit's
>> >> >> >dirty laundry, likely never to see the light of day.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >The latest Givati scandal has wracked the army and the state and
>has
>> >> >pushed
>> >> >> >aside reports of IDF successes in preventing terror. It has raised
>> >> >questions
>> >> >> >about the very soul of the IDF. Did a combat captain "verify" the
>> >death
>> >> >of a
>> >> >> >13-year-old Palestinian girl and how much is this behavior
>prevalent
>> >in
>> >> >the
>> >> >> >army today?
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >"The truth is, that every conflict, and in this case, every
>intefadeh,
>> >> >> >brings with it their own troubles," said Brig.-Gen. (res.) Amnon
>> >> >Straschnov,
>> >> >> >a former IDF advocate general and retired Tel Aviv District Court
>> >judge.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Straschnov said the incident was a "blemish on the combat ethos of
>the
>> >> >IDF."
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >"But I wouldn't see this a very wide spread phenomena that has
>> >infected
>> >> >all
>> >> >> >the IDF units," Straschnov said.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Still, there is a sense that something may be rotten in the IDF,
>now
>> >> >> >entering its fifth year of fighting an urban guerrilla war against
>the
>> >> >> >Palestinian terrorists operating amid innocent civilians.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >The discussions of late have dealt mainly with if the captain shot,
>> >when
>> >> >he
>> >> >> >shot and how much did he shoot. They do not deal with the deeper
>> >> >questions
>> >> >> >such as how, according to leaked radio transmissions of the
>incident;
>> >> >some
>> >> >> >soldiers opened fire on a girl even though they know they aren't
>> >supposed
>> >> >to
>> >> >> >shoot at girls.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >"The behavior of the soldiers is problematic," Straschnov said in
>an
>> >> >> >interview on Army radio. "Either some of them made false
>accusations
>> >> >against
>> >> >> >the CO, as he claims and which will be clarified in the court
>martial,
>> >or
>> >> >> >they lent a hand to shooting at an innocent girl and kept silent
>about
>> >> >it.
>> >> >> >Then, and only because of some issues they had previously against
>the
>> >CO,
>> >> >> >they said what they said. And apparently they didn't tell all of
>the
>> >> >truth
>> >> >> >in the debriefings."
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >"This isn't as bad as the alleged shooting and verifying the kill
>of
>> >the
>> >> >> >girl, but it is certainly a phenomena that the IDF chief of general
>> >staff
>> >> >> >needs to address when it comes to the credibility of debriefings,
>> >which
>> >> >to
>> >> >> >my great regret have not proven to be very credible lately,"
>> >Straschnov
>> >> >> >said.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >The IDF has proudly spotlighted its purity of arms. The common held
>> >> >belief
>> >> >> >is that accusations by the Arabs, often echoed by the world media,
>> >that
>> >> >the
>> >> >> >army violates this by collective punishments, harming civilians,
>> >> >mistreating
>> >> >> >prisoners and even mutilating the bodies of dead terrorists, are
>just
>> >> >plain
>> >> >> >defamation against Israel.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Purity is difficult to preserve, particularly when your enemy
>follows
>> >a
>> >> >> >different set of rules.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >The IDF has followed a strict moral code and even indirect
>violation
>> >from
>> >> >it
>> >> >> >causes a strong public outcry. This was seen in the case of Sabra
>and
>> >> >> >Chatilla, when the IDF command allowed Christian Phalangist
>militiamen
>> >> >into
>> >> >> >the Palestinian refugee camps in Beirut in 1982 who subsequently
>> >> >massacred
>> >> >> >hundreds of innocent people.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >The IDF code of ethics actually spells out when one can shoot an
>enemy
>> >> >and
>> >> >> >when it would be considered illegal to shoot them.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >The term "verifying the kill," has been twisted over the years by
>> >> >soldiers
>> >> >> >to mean a confirmation that their duty was accomplished and not
>> >necessary
>> >> >> >executing anyone.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >"It is a slang expression by the soldiers who don't truly
>understand
>> >what
>> >> >> >they are supposed to do when their lives are in danger," said Prof.
>> >Assa
>> >> >> >Kasher, who drafted the IDF code of ethics.
>> >> >> >He said that shooting one's enemy is an objective issue defined by
>the
>> >> >level
>> >> >> >of danger they present and it is not a matter of intuition.
>> >> >> >"Sometimes you have to shoot to kill. But you when a man is lying
>down
>> >> >> >wounded you don't do actions to be on the safe side, you do actions
>> >> >> >according one's consideration if there is danger or not," Kasher
>said.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >"There is no such thing as plugging two more bullets into someone's
>> >head
>> >> >to
>> >> >> >be on the safe side. There is no ethical, moral or legal permission
>to
>> >do
>> >> >> >this," Kasher said.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >The modern Givati Brigade has borne the brunt of the conflict with
>the
>> >> >> >Palestinians in the Gaza Strip. They have seen their comrades blown
>to
>> >> >bits
>> >> >> >in the Zeitun refugee camp and then Palestinians parading around in
>a
>> >> >frenzy
>> >> >> >with their body parts. This, it turns out, has been the experience
>of
>> >the
>> >> >> >brigade since the beginning of the state.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >Col. (ret.) Yitzhak Pundak, one of the founders of the Givati
>brigade
>> >and
>> >> >> >commander of the 53rd battalion in the War of Independence, said
>the
>> >> >> >phenomenon of "verifying the kill" was always known in war. But he
>was
>> >> >> >adamant that it never happened in his battalion.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >"Every time the Arabs would come upon one of our wounded men they
>> >would
>> >> >kill
>> >> >> >them," Pundak said. "One time, we came upon four of our soldiers
>left
>> >> >behind
>> >> >> >and they had been decapitated. We later saw that the Arabs had
>stuck
>> >> >their
>> >> >> >heads on stakes in the city of Majdal (Ashkelon)."
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >"It's hard for a soldier to remain moral after seeing such things,
>but
>> >we
>> >> >> >did," Pundak said. "There were no IDF rules and we didn't have the
>> >media
>> >> >or
>> >> >> >lawyers around us back then. Still, I can assure you that none in
>my
>> >unit
>> >> >> >broke the rules of war."
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >"This episode with the Gavati soldiers bothers me. I think that
>this
>> >> >thing
>> >> >> >needs to be rooted out. I can understand the fighters today and the
>> >way
>> >> >they
>> >> >> >are being eroded and the risk of deviating from normality."
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >"The IDF needs to be sacred. They can't use their weapons like the
>> >Arabs
>> >> >do.
>> >> >> >This verifying the kill, if it indeed happened, is forbidden," he
>> >said.
>> >> >> >
>> >> >> >"torresD" <torresd30@hotmail.com> wrote in message
>> >> >> >news:Crbpd.767$Ua.184@newsread3.news.atl.earthlink.net...
>> >> >> >| Israeli officer: I was right to shoot 13-year-old child
>> >> >> >| http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,2763,1358173,00.html
>> >> >> >| Israeli officer: I was right to shoot 13-year-old child
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| Radio exchange contradicts army version of Gaza killing
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| Chris McGreal in Jerusalem
>> >> >> >| Wednesday November 24, 2004
>> >> >> >| The Guardian
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| An Israeli army officer who repeatedly
>> >> >> >| shot a 13-year-old Palestinian girl in
>> >> >> >| Gaza dismissed a warning from another
>> >> >> >| soldier that she was a child by saying
>> >> >> >| he would have killed her even if she
>> >> >> >| was three years old.
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| The officer,
>> >> >> >| identified by the army only as Captain R,
>> >> >> >| was charged this week with illegal use
>> >> >> >| of his weapon, conduct unbecoming an officer
>> >> >> >| and other relatively minor infractions after
>> >> >> >| emptying all 10 bullets from his gun's magazine
>> >> >> >| into Iman al-Hams when she walked into a
>> >> >> >| "security area" on the edge of Rafah
>> >> >> >| refugee camp last month.
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| A tape recording of radio exchanges
>> >> >> >| between soldiers involved in the incident,
>> >> >> >| played on Israeli television,
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| contradicts the army's account of
>> >> >> >| the events and appears to show that
>> >> >> >| the captain shot the girl in cold blood.
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| The official account claimed that Iman
>> >> >> >| was shot as she walked towards an army
>> >> >> >| post with her schoolbag because soldiers
>> >> >> >| feared she was carrying a bomb.
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| But the tape recording of the radio
>> >> >> >| conversation between soldiers at the
>> >> >> >| scene reveals that,
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| from the beginning,
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| she was identified as a child and
>> >> >> >| at no point was a bomb spoken about
>> >> >> >| nor was she described as a threat.
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| Iman was also at least 100 yards from any soldier.
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| Instead, the tape shows that the soldiers
>> >> >> >| swiftly identified her as a "girl of about
>> >> >> >| 10" who was "scared to death".
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| The tape also reveals that the
>> >> >> >| soldiers said Iman was headed eastwards,
>> >> >> >| away from the army post and back into
>> >> >> >| the refugee camp, when she was shot.
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| At that point,
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| Captain R took the unusual
>> >> >> >| decision to leave the post in
>> >> >> >| pursuit of the girl.
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| He shot her dead and then
>> >> >> >| "confirmed the kill" by
>> >> >> >| emptying his magazine into
>> >> >> >| her body.
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| The tape recording is of a three-way
>> >> >> >| conversation between the army watchtower,
>> >> >> >| the army post's operations room and the
>> >> >> >| captain, who was a company commander.
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| The soldier in the watchtower radioed
>> >> >> >| his colleagues after he saw Iman:
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| "It's a little girl.
>> >> >> >| She's running defensively eastward."
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| Operations room:
>> >> >> >| "Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?"
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| Watchtower:
>> >> >> >| "A girl of about 10, she's behind
>> >> >> >| the embankment, scared to death."
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| A few minutes later,
>> >> >> >| Iman is shot in the leg
>> >> >> >| from one of the army posts.
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| The watchtower:
>> >> >> >| "I think that one of the positions took her out."
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| The company commander then moves
>> >> >> >| in as Iman lies wounded and helpless.
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| Captain R:
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| "I and another soldier ...
>> >> >> >| are going in a little nearer,
>> >> >> >| forward, to confirm the kill ...
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| Receive a situation report.
>> >> >> >| We fired and killed her ...
>> >> >> >| I also confirmed the kill. Over."
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| Witnesses described how the
>> >> >> >| captain shot Iman twice in the head,
>> >> >> >| walked away, turned back and fired a
>> >> >> >| stream of bullets into her body.
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| Doctors at Rafah's hospital said
>> >> >> >| she had been shot at least 17 times.
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| On the tape, the company commander
>> >> >> >| then "clarifies" why he killed Iman:
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| "This is commander.
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| Anything that's mobile,
>> >> >> >| that moves in the zone,
>> >> >> >| even if it's a three-year-old,
>> >> >> >| needs to be killed. Over."
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| The army's original account of the
>> >> >> >| killing said that the soldiers only
>> >> >> >| identified Iman as a child after she
>> >> >> >| was first shot.
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| But the tape shows that they were
>> >> >> >| aware just how young the small,
>> >> >> >| slight girl was before any shots were fired.
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| The case came to light after soldiers
>> >> >> >| under the command of Captain R went to
>> >> >> >| an Israeli newspaper to accuse the
>> >> >> >| army of covering up the circumstances
>> >> >> >| of the killing.
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| A subsequent investigation by the
>> >> >> >| officer responsible for the Gaza strip,
>> >> >> >| Major General Dan Harel,
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| concluded that the captain
>> >> >> >| had "not acted unethically".
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| However,
>> >> >> >| the military police
>> >> >> >| launched an investigation,
>> >> >> >| which resulted in charges
>> >> >> >| against the unit commander.
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| Iman's parents have accused the army
>> >> >> >| of whitewashing the affair by filing
>> >> >> >| minor charges against Captain R.
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| They want him prosecuted for murder.
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| Record of a shooting
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| Watchtower
>> >> >> >| 'It's a little girl.
>> >> >> >| She's running defensively eastward'
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| Operations room
>> >> >> >| 'Are we talking about a girl under the age of 10?'
>> >> >> >| Watchtower
>> >> >> >| 'A girl of about 10,
>> >> >> >| she's behind the embankment, scared to death'
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >| Captain R (after killing the girl)
>> >> >> >| 'Anything moving in the zone,
>> >> >> >| even a three-year-old, needs to be killed'
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >> >|
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >>
>> >
>>
>