Re: Languages in Europe - Who understands what ?

From: Reinhold (Rey) Aman (aman_at_sonic.net)
Date: 12/02/04 

Date: Thu, 02 Dec 2004 08:12:50 GMT

Lee Sau Dan wrote:

> Reinhold (Rey) Aman writes:

>> "in dem Zug" > "im Zug" (Question: Wo?)
>>
>> "in den Zug hinein." (Question: Wohin?)

> Funny, what's the equivalence for (Q: Woher?)?
> Why is it so asymmetric?

I don't understand what's asymmetric about "Wo?" and "Woher?" and what
"Woher?" has to do with the above teaching aids.

> Why is there no such analogy between "von dem Zug" vs. "*von den Zug"?

Because the preposition _von_ always demands the dative (here: "dem");
"den" = accusative.

> When "Er kriecht unter den Tisch" (wohin) can contrast with
> "Er kriecht unter dem Tisch" (wohin),
                                ^^^^^
No, "wo"; not "wohin." *Where* is he crawling (around) [location], not
*where to* is he crawling [direction].

> how to say the 'woher' equivalent?

  1. _unter_ is one of the nine so-called two-way prepositions (i.e.,
those that take either the dative or the accusative, depending on
movement, direction, location and position). Example:

     Ich stehe unter DER Brücke. Wo? --> Dative.
     Ich gehe unter DIE Brücke. Wohin? --> Accusative.

  2. "Er kriecht unter den [acc.] Tisch" (He crawls under the table)
answers the question "Wohin?" (*Where to* does he crawl?) and indicates
that he is currently away from the table and crawling towards it.

  3. "Er kriecht unter dem [dat.] Tisch" (He's crawling around
under/neath the table) answers the question, "Wo?" (*Where* is he
crawling around?) and indicates that he is already under/neath the table
and crawling around (e.g., looking for his missing contact lens).

  4. "How to say the 'woher' equivalent?" is here irrelevant and
unrelated, as far as I can see. "Woher?" (*where from*?) takes the
dative, if a dative-only preposition is used: "Woher kriecht er?"
(Where is he crawling from?) -- "VON seinem [dat.] Zimmer." (From his
room.) or "AUS dem [dat.] Bett." (From his bed.)

The answers to the questions "Wo?" and "Wohin?" help the learner decide
whether to use the dative or the accusative with those tricky two-way
prepositions. Some more examples:

Ich stehe auf DER Straße (dat). Wo? I'm already there.
Ich gehe auf DER Straße (dat). Wo? I'm already there.
Ich gehe auf DIE Straße (acc). Wohin? I'm not yet there.

Sie sitzt hinter DEM Haus. (dat). Wo? She's already there.
Sie springt hinter DEM Haus. (dat). Wo? She's already there.
Sie springt hinter DAS Haus. (acc). Wohin? She's not yet there.

A neat table of German prepositions is here:

  http://www.aaresoft.com/german/german14.htm

What many textbooks and teachers fail to explain is that *movement AT/IN
a specific place/location* (such as crawling around underneath a table,
jumping (rope) behind a house, walking in the street) do *not* fall into
the Movement=Accusative category but demand the dative. 

-- 
Reinhold (Rey) Aman
Uralter Deutschlehrer
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