Re: hungary and austria in arabic
From: Xenia (tyusha_at_freemail.ru)
Date: 12/08/04
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Date: 8 Dec 2004 12:03:38 -0800
Sorry darling, your post is a mess. The issue has been discussed here
many times before. To make a long story short, the word "nemtsy" should
be coupled with the word "sloviane", i.e. mute people vs. people who
understand and speak words. There are many reasons, primarily phonetic,
why the word shouldn't be connected with the western germanic tribe you
mentioned.
First of all, nem'c' used to be a pan-Slavic word not only for Germans
but for foreigners in general. Secondly, the Turkish word is borrowed
from Arabic which itself is borrowed from the Greek. And the Greek word
"Nemtsoi" is first used by Constantinos Porphyrogenetos in the same
book where he described the Russian sieges of Constantinople and his
own matrimonial proposals to Olga of Pskov.
I hope you get my train of thought: the word stems from Russian, like
most medieval Arabic vocabulary for nothern ethnoi.
piotr panek wrote:
> Dnia 04-12-06 01:20, w li¶cie od osoby znanej jako Yusuf B Gursey
było:
> > In sci.lang Nigel Greenwood <ndsg_mmii@yahoo.co.uk> wrote in
<7a31b7bf.0412051405.4c8478e5@posting.google.com>:
> > : ybg@theworld.com (Yusuf B Gursey) wrote
> >
> > : <...>
> >
> > :> al-nimsa: is from ottoman turkish nem*ch*e which in turn came
from
> > :> hungarian or
> > :> slavonic.
> >
> > : Russian Nemets < Nemoy = dumb/mute (people who couldn't speak
> > : Russian).
> >
> > but turkish took it from slavonic and AFAIK the word is used in
Hungarian
> > as well.
>
> Well, the most probable is, that this
> pan(northward-at-least-from-Danube)slavic + hungarian word has
origins
> in language of these tribes, which have the most contacts with
Germans -
> ie. - (proto)Czech, (proto)Polish or even (proto)Lusatian or
Polabian.
> Russians met Germans a few centuries later. So Russian Nemets is a
> loanword from Polish Niemiec (which on the round may be a loanword
from
> Lusatian or sth like that). Do you expect that Hungarians had to
adopt
> this word from Russian? They must have done it from Czech or Polish -
> these three countries/cultures were very close in medieval.
>
> The meaning of "niemiec" is still disputable. Folketymology is that
it
> means a mute, but some linguists say, that it is slavicized form of
the
> name of Nemetes tribe. AFAIK this tribe inhabited the Rhine valley
far
> from Slavic territories and wasn't specially large and powerful, so
the
> Saxons or Bavarians would be better candidates to "baptize" all the
> nation. On the other hand, Nemetes were connected to Teutons, which
> "baptized" the nation in German (Deutsch) and Italian, so maybe
Nemetes
> could have done it as well.
>
> >Evliya C,elebi (17th cent.) thought, incorrectly of course, that
> > it was Hungarian meaning << nem Cseh >> "not Czech"
> >
> > nem*ch*e was also used in Ottoman turkish with suffixes or in
compounds to
> > indicate "German" (language, people).
>
> Well, Ottoman Turks met Hungarians and Poles (whose co-feudum was
> Moldavia) many years before the met Russian (even Ruthenians ie.
> Ukrainian antecessors).
The Russians controlled much of the Black Sea trade in Tmutarakan and
Korsun as early as the 10th century. Arabic sources mention how awesome
were their military expeditions to Azerbaidjan at that time. And we
have plenty of information about Russian contacts with the Turks when
the latter lived a long way from present-day Turkey.
Xenia
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