Re: hungary and austria in arabic

ybg_at_theworld.com
Date: 12/10/04 

Date: 10 Dec 2004 14:23:39 -0800

ybg@theworld.com wrote:
> Paul J Kriha wrote:
> > I Am What I Am <iamwhatiam@gmail.com> wrote in message
> > news:1102574768.867502.197890@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> > > Yusuf B Gursey wrote:
> > > > medieval arabs very rarely communicated directly (unless you
> count
> > > the
> > > > skirmishes with the Rus) with russians.
> > >
> > > yes, medieval arabs "communicated directly" with poles and czechs
> much
> > > more often ')
> >
> > And indeed they have.
> > (I know you didn't mean to, but you are dead right :-).
> >
> > Many of the major South-North trading highways, salt, silver,
> > gold, silk, and other routes led through middle Europe, through
> > Prague to Poland and farther North and North-West.
> >
> > The oldest known arab-language travelogue (of this area)
> > is by Arab-Jewish merchant Ibrahim Ibn Jacob who visited

Ibrahim b. Ya`qub al-'Israili is thought to be identical to Ibrahim
al-Turtushi (from Tortosa) who was sent as an envoy to Otto I.

he needn't have relied on Slavs for information on Germans!

An early 16th cent. Arabic - German vocabulary from Spain has
lisa:nu ~l-'alaman "tongue / language of the Germans (al-'alaman)

similar to modern arabic al-'alma:n "German", not using a derivative of
Nemets.

> > Prague on his way through Europe in 965. 10th Century!
> > He found here "a town 100 years of age, built of stone and lime
> > and with the richest trade of all Slavic cities".
> > He described in detail quantity of stone buildings, numbers of
> > bow, shield, and carriage manufaturers, gold and silver smithies
> > and quality of their products.
> >
> > No doubt, travellers, tradesmen, military spies, i.e. people like
> > him with their large retinues *communicated directly* rather
> > a lot about names of peoples they met and names they had for
> > their neighbouring tribes and peoples.
>
> but still, it was rare.
>
> the only mention of a name resembling Nemets is na:ji:n which is
> included as a tribe of "Slavs" (Saqa:liba(t) ) while the same writer,
> Mas`ud (10th cent.) has a list of Holy Roman Emperors under the title
> "Kings of the Franks". better information came from Spain and Sicily,
> so the names 'alma:n, jirma:n or (generic) 'ifranj ("Franks", rather
> generic) was common.
>
> Ottomam Turks had regular contacts with Germans from the East,
> occasionally used Nemc^e / Nemse, and thus transmitted it to Modern
> Standard Arabic.
>
> this is consistnet with "the paper trail".
>
> it is always possible to concoct scenarios for anything, so it is
> better
> to stick to what is attested, unless information later turns up to
> modify it.
>
>
> >
> > Paul JK

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