What is reverse anubandha karana? Why is it a valid process? Why is historicity important to be settled?
From: allingus (kamil.kartal_at_gmail.com)
Date: 02/10/05
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Date: 10 Feb 2005 06:16:37 -0800
"K. Loganathan" <ulagankmy@yahoo.com> wrote:
To: ... bcn_2004@yahoogroups.com
From: "K. Loganathan"
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 19:20:42 -0800 (PST)
Subject: [bcn2004] Fwd: [bharatvani] What is reverse anubandha karana?
Why is it a valid process? Why is historicity important to be settled?
RE: [Tolkaappiyar] Digest Number 369
BVK Sastry <sastry_bvk@hindu-university.edu> wrote:
To: ,
From: "BVK Sastry"
Date: Wed, 9 Feb 2005 13:09:40 -0500
Subject: [bharatvani] What is reverse anubandha karana? Why is it a
valid process? Why is historicity important to be settled? RE:
[Tolkaappiyar] Digest Number 369
Namaste,
What is reverse anubandha karana?
1. anubandha karana is a process which meets: a) rule based, b)
specific goal oriented c) grammar conforming d) and culturally
consistent process. It is a technique of encryption and preserving the
sacred texts.
The vedic tradition preserves the texts in two streams: (a)One of the
eight fold recension called the 'ashta vikruti paatha', which is also
known as the recesnions of veda. (b) Anubandha karana process.
In the eight fold recension called the 'ashta vikruti paatha', which is
also known as the recesnions of veda, the complete text is visible and
iterations are done to ensure that there is no deformity. Some times,
visible deformities are deliberately introduced, which only a guru
knows how to correct it using specific rules of the disciplines. Such
false leads are called visible deception to safe guard the text. The
very presence of this
technique, rules for checking are a positive evidence that theories
about the 'linguistic distortions of spoken/ historic vedic text' are
just biased concoctions. Presence of multiple recensions does not mean
the distortion of the text. They have different applications. The same
vedic text in rigveda with a particular accent for a particular purpose
is used differently in a
Saman chant for a different goal. This is not any ground to say that
the music of saman was added on the old text of rigveda or music of
saman was removed to get at the rigvedic text with a different accent.
In anubandha karana, the process is totally different, where in parts
of the text are concealed , encrypted and stored in a distributed way.
The reconstruction of the original from the scrambled portions is a
rule conforming process. To give an analogy - (a) in the archeological
excavations, each pieces is numbered at the point of excavation. Moved
in different phases and reassembled. At the point of reassembling, the
key is the coding; not the way it was transported. (b) In the internet
technologies, the time and route stamp is a model for this kind of
transmission and assemblage process. The data packets travel by
multiple routes to the user system; but before getting displayed, there
is a program which assembles the data packages in the right order. This
program is hidden from the user. The role of a temple priest, a guru is
ensuring and validating this kind of right reassemblage.(c) In the
courier systems, this is called tracking number allotment. (d) In
defense it is called data encryption. For voice data encryption and
traditional conventions encryption, Yoga-tantra follow the rules of
Sanskrit grammar, the Chandas (=prosody) and Nirukta (=dictionary) and
the special conventions of tantra itself.
All these are integral part in making the reverse of anubandha karana
and validating the final output. It is unlike the issues of modern
linguistics which mixes up languages and discards grammar and
discipline specific conventions in preference to slackness in
pronunciation to accommodate regional variations. Anubandha akrana is a
special Veda-Tantra-Yoga based tradition technique of language in
ritual and Magic domains.
***************************************
What anubandha karana/reverse anubandha karana is NOT ?
a) It is not < legitimatization of free introduction of sufixes
prefixes and infixes so that the Sk form can be forced out of the
original sumerian and without any justification>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
b) It answers the issues of consistency of meaning and tradition. And
to get at it, the knowledge of the source language and tradition -
Sanskrit-veda-yoga-tantra is an essential prerequisite.
< For the Tamil derivation that keeps close to the original as far as
possible in both phonetic shape and meaning, we can establish general
rules that do not distort too much the original structure in both
phonetic shape and meaning.>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
c) It Goes along with the validation points of several checklists in
tradition, exactly like reverse encryption of an encrypted message. If
one does not know the right way of working and does not have the right
tools, the whole exercise may look like 'forced thinking'. That is what
the 'code breakers' get frustrated with! The constraints are absence of
right frame of mind and tools to decode the given text. If it looks
like an exercise on Rubik cube color matching on all sides, yes it is!
< It all seems to be too forced taking the notion of "Reverse Anubhanda
KaraNa' as legitimization of freely distorting the original Sumerian
sentences just to make it appear Sk sounding. You do not seem to
recognize any CONSTRAINTS that such reconstructions demand both in
MEANING and Phonological shape. I certainly don't go along with it and
I leave it to others to judge for themselves.>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
d) It is NOT generative linguistics in the sense of modern linguistics.
It is right assemblage of the pieces of tradition according to a rule
base. This technique is essentially a part of the Vedic tradition in
Paninian grammar along with a host of other encryption techniques in
Tantra. If tol has indications of this, please explain why that process
is ignored in the construction of the text and modern linguistics is
preferred. Any special reasons to discard the recommended method of tol
?
< de/re-construction as laid down in Tol as Uri/Viri linguistics with
parallel in anubandha karana in sanskrit though i feel (AK)is not a
part of paninians linguistics.Dr.shastry has been enlighting the group
on generative grammar linguistics in sanskrit which has parallel in
Tamil in the form of uri/viri linguistics.>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
e) Regarding arriving at the Tamil form of the text from the Sanskrit
base is easy because there is a grammar which speaks of how tamil comes
from Sanskrit through the rotues of PRakrita process. For the reverse
direction of Tamil to Sanskrit, conjectures need to be made based on
modern linguistics .
< it would be easier for me to arrive at Tamil base from sanskrit than
Sumerian for Sanskrit is more stabilised medium than sumerian as we
have to heavily depend on roman texts in case of sumerian.>
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
f) Can Sanskrit interpret Sumerian ? In my opinion,as (va)Sumeru , yes.
Before venturing on that let the historicity issue be settled. And that
will pave the path for the next stage easily. < Dr.Shastry is now
subjecting himself to same criticism he had been adressing all along
against us. Can panini or Tantra interpret Sumerian texts. well Tol is
for Tamil as Panini is for sanskrit agreed but if sanskrit partends
sumerian there should be a
sumerian grammar work which unfortunately not available now.
****************************
Regards.
BVK Sastry
========================
-----Original Message-----
From: Tolkaappiyar@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:Tolkaappiyar@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2005 7:55 AM
To: Tolkaappiyar@yahoogroups.com
Subject: [Tolkaappiyar] Digest Number 369
There are 18 messages in this issue.
Topics in this digest:
1. Re: Lamentations over the Destruction of Ur 1-5
From: drvasudevan
2. Re: Lamentations over the Destruction of Ur 1-5
From: drvasudevan
3. kaathal thiru vizhaa
From: drvasudevan
4. Re: [min-suvadi] An egroups for Sumerian Studies
From: "K. Loganathan"
5. Re: Lamentations over the Destruction of Ur 1-5
From: "ulagankmy"
6. Re: Lamentations over the Destruction of Ur 1-5
From: "burningflame"
7. anubandha karana - historicty issues before linguistic issues
From: "BVK Sastry"
8. Re: [SumerianStudies] Sumerian as Archaic Tamil and Viri
Linguistics
From: "K. Loganathan"
9. Valentines Day in Ancient Tamil Land
From: "Raju M. Rajendran"
10. Eridu , the City of Siva?
From: "K. Loganathan"
11. Sanskrit construction of Ur 1-5 by reverse anubandha karana
illustrated to show Sanskrit is the absis of (va)sumeru tamil.
From: "BVK Sastry"
12. Re: Sanskrit construction of Ur 1-5 by reverse anubandha karana
illustrated to show Sanskrit is the absis of (va)sumeru tamil.
From: "K. Loganathan"
13. Re: Sanskrit construction of Ur 1-5 by reverse anubandha karana
illustrated to show Sanskrit is the absis of (va)sumeru tamil.
From: "burningflame"
14. The Verses of the Snake Charmer 34
From: "K. Loganathan"
15. The Eridu Genesis
From: "K. Loganathan"
16. Re: So the return is to the point of Historicity RE: Historcit...
From: "K. Loganathan"
17. Lamentations over the Destruction of Ur 1-6
From: "K. Loganathan"
18. Re: Sanskrit construction of Ur 1-5 by reverse anubandha karana
illustrated to show Sanskrit is the absis of (va)sumeru tamil.
From: "burningflame"
-------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 20:51:28 -0500
From: "BVK Sastry"
Subject: Sanskrit construction of Ur 1-5 by reverse anubandha karana
illustrated to show Sanskrit is the absis of (va)sumeru tamil.
Sanskrit construction of Ur 1-5 by reverse anubandha karana illustrated
Namaste> The following interpretations is provided as a sample to
illustrate how
anubandha karana brings out the roots of Veda-Yoga Tantra stream of
Sumero
Tamil hymns an illustration is given below. I have just taken six lines
to
point out the key thought: The repetition of the word Su. 'mus > Skt.
(na)mos(tu) = salutations blends with the temple atmosphere of the
hymns and
mother goddess worship.
The line (which is read as lamentation as it repeats fifty times,)
-----------------
Message: 12
Date: Tue, 8 Feb 2005 19:00:08 -0800 (PST)
From: "K. Loganathan"
Subject: Re: Sanskrit construction of Ur 1-5 by reverse anubandha
karana
illustrated to show Sanskrit is the absis of (va)sumeru tamil.
Dear Dr Sastry
Before other scholars respond to you, let me mention that your notion
of
"Reverse Anunbhand karana' is very confusing. It appears to me more a
legitimatization of free introduction of sufixes prefixes and infixes
so
that the Sk form can be forced out of the original sumerian and without
any
justification
Let me illustrate the issue:
Su. (1-18) - am-an-ki-ke e-bi uru -si-ba-ke .
Ta. Ta. (1-18) - amman kiizkee ilbi uuru sivaakkee .
Skt. (1-18) - amrutendukirana ke guru shiva keli ke mudita manasaa
Now how to you derive from "am-an-ki-ke" the Sk 'amurutenakirana ' as
opposed to Ta. amman kiizkee?
For the Tamil derivation that keeps close to the original as far as
possible in both phonetic shape and meaning, we can establish general
rules
that do not distort too much the original structure in both phonetic
shape
and meaning. Changes like am-an> amman , ki> kiiz, ki, ku etc can be
justified in a general sort of way. And how does 'uru' (city) instead
being
rendered as Ta. uuru (city) , the SAME in meaning with u- > uu, become
'guru"? I just don't get it.
Loga
--------------
Message: 13
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 04:13:26 -0000
From: "burningflame"
Subject: Re: Sanskrit construction of Ur 1-5 by reverse anubandha
karana
illustrated to show Sanskrit is the absis of (va)sumeru tamil.
--- First of all let me congratulate Dr.Shastryji for a late but apt
participation in the process of de/re-construction as laid down in
Tol as Uri/Viri linguistics with parallel in anubandha karana in
sanskrit though i feel (AK)is not a part of paninians
linguistics.Dr.shastry has been enlighting the group on generative
grammar linguistics in sanskrit which has parallel in Tamil in the
form of uri/viri linguistics.
Now the surprising thing about shastriji is, i would put it in a
positive way as not to hurt him,he has come in line with this study
group which he has all along been a critic of .It doesn`t however
matter for me if we can deconstruct or reconstruct sumerian into
sanskrit for it would be easier for me to arrive at Tamil base from
sanskrit than Sumerian for Sanskrit is more stabilised medium than
sumerian as we have to heavily depend on roman texts in case of
sumerian.
Since there are points of dispute in timeline of sans-sumer-tamil
one has to know the structure of each language and its development
cycle.I have already proved that higher order consonants are
derivative from literary angle and hence the language sanskrit that
is heavily dosed with this cannot be a primary language.
In Tolkaappiyar@yahoogroups.com, "K. Loganathan"
wrote:
>>>>>>
Message: 18
Date: Wed, 09 Feb 2005 11:55:03 -0000
From: "burningflame"
Subject: Re: Sanskrit construction of Ur 1-5 by reverse anubandha
karana
illustrated to show Sanskrit is the absis of (va)sumeru tamil.
--- Su. (1-18) - am-an-ki-ke e-bi uru -si-ba-ke .
> >
> > Ta. Ta. (1-18) - amman kiizkee ilbi uuru sivaakkee .
> >
> >
> > Skt. (1-18) - amrutendukirana ke guru shiva keli ke mudita
> manasaa
> >
> >
> >
> > Now how to you derive from "am-an-ki-ke" the
Sk 'amurutenakirana '
> as opposed to Ta. amman kiizkee?
> >
> >
> > For the Tamil derivation that keeps close to the original as far
> as possible in both phonetic shape and meaning, we can establish
> general rules that do not distort too much the original structure
in
> both phonetic shape and meaning. Changes like am-an> amman , ki>
> kiiz, ki, ku etc can be justified in a general sort of way. And how
> does 'uru' (city) instead being rendered as Ta. uuru (city) , the
> SAME in meaning with u- > uu, become 'guru"? I just don't get it.
> >
> > It all seems to be too forced taking the notion of "Reverse
> Anubhanda KaraNa' as legitimization of freely distorting the
> original Sumerian sentences just to make it appear Sk sounding. You
> do not seem to recognize any CONSTRAINTS that such reconstructions
> demand both in MEANING and Phonological shape."
> > **************************************************
Dr.Shastry is now subjecting himself to same criticism he had been
adressing all along against us.
Can panini or Tantra interpret Sumerian texts.
well Tol is for Tamil as Panini is for sanskrit agreed but if
sanskrit partends sumerian there should be a sumerian grammar work
which unfortunately not available now.
I read this sentence as follows:
am-an-ki-ke e-bi uru -si-ba-ke .
> >
Amman(I presume this has reference to sun god) Kizhke/Kizhakke(East)
ezhubi/ezhumi(Arise) Uru/Ooru (City)Chibakke/ Chivakka(exposed to
light).
Now Shastryji has to explain how he arrived at:
amrutendukirana ke guru shiva keli ke mudita
> manasaa-I find this sentence more Kannada than sanskrit.
Amrutendu for Amman, Kiranake for Ki-ke, Guru for Ebiuru, shiva keli
ke mudita manasaa for si-ba-ke.
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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