Re: Academic/scientific journals in Esperanto?
From: Manuel M Campagna (fa192_at_FreeNet.Carleton.CA)
Date: 02/26/05
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Date: 26 Feb 2005 20:47:12 GMT
(jwlawler@yahoo.com) writes:
> Manuel M Campagna wrote:
>> Sean O'Leathlobhair (jwlawler@yahoo.com) writes:
>> > "Bernardo (Verda)" <spamless@nospam.com> wrote in message
> news:<pan.2005.02.16.00.58.22.333512@nospam.com>...
>> >> On Tue, 15 Feb 2005 20:07:23 +0000, Manuel M Campagna wrote:
>> >> >> Manuel M Campagna wrote:
>> >> >>> (jwlawler@yahoo.com) writes:
>> >> >>> > Damir Malkoc wrote:
>> >> >>> When anglophones pronounce French names, they often sound ugly
> to me,
>> >> >> if
>> >> >>> not monstrous. Why can't you pronounce them properly?
>> >> >> Is there a reason that we should be able to pronounce French
> well?
>> >> >> What else should we be able to pronounce well: German, Swedish,
> Thai,
>> >> >> Mandarin etc? How well do you pronounce Chinese names? It
> would be a
>> >> >> nice world if we could all pronounce each other's languages
> well but I
>> >> >> don't expect that it will ever happen.
>> >> >> Many French don't pronounce English well either. Is that less
> of a
>> >> >> crime than the English pronouncing French badly?
>> >> >> Since so many people from so many linguistic backgrounds learn
> English,
>> >> >> we are used to a huge variety of strange pronunciations of
> English and
>> >> >> most of us try to be tolerant of them. The Spanish often fail
> to
>> >> >> distinguish the vowels in "sit" and "seat" which sounds odd and
>> >> >> sometimes causes misunderstandings.
>> >> > Since people from diverse linguistic backgrounds will
> mispronounce names
>> >> > differently, this causes a problem.
>> >> > If people insist on using the name used in their mother tongue
> as the
>> >> > absolute "real" name, this will cause potentially serious
>> >> > misunderstandings. I have tried unsuccessfully to make
> Anglophone
>> >> > Esperantists aware of this
>> >> > problem, but they didn't even seem to understand the problem
> they were
>> >> > causing, or even to realize that there was a problem. To them
> the "real"
>> >> > name must be what they use in English including their English
>> >> > pronunciation.
>> >> This is unfortunately true. I ascribe this to a combination of
> practical
>> >> ignorance concerning the non-american world, and the illusion that
> English
>> >> is the de facto world-language, and that this is because english
> is
>> >> inherently more logical and more "natural" than alternatives.
>>
>> So, even a native speaker of the self-styled "world language" is in
> this
>> way disadvantaged, even when they know other languages. They are too
>> self-centered.
> I don't feel disadvantaged by being a native English speaker nor I
> would accept that I am especially self-centred. Please avoid
> stereotypes. How many British and Irish have you met? Were they all
> too self-centred? This criticism is also often applied to the
> Americans. In that case I know examples that seem to support it but
> also many that do not.
> Sometimes us natives are accused of having an unfair advantage and
> sometimes the opposite. I think that the reality is more complex. In
> a multi-lingual discussion we may have the advantage of being less
> likely to miss something but the disadvantage of not being able to have
> an easy, secret side conversation.
>> > I would not claim that English is more logical or natural than
> other
>> > languages. It does have some good points but also many bad points.
>> > In fact, I admire many points or Mandarin and various other Far
>> > Eastern languages. In many ways, these languages do seem more
>> > 'logical' than many others.
>> > But I would claim that English is the de facto word language. Just
>> > look at a few airports. I have yet to see one which does not list
> the
>> > names of flight destinations in English. The language, or
> languages,
>> > local to the airport will usually be available as well but maybe no
>> > others, not even the language of the destination. Someone who
> knows a
>> > little English and that the German city K=F6ln is called Cologne in
>> > English will probably find the plane going there. Someone who only
>> > knows K=F6ln or its name in another language, may struggle.
>> You don't have to know English to say "Cologne". "Cologne" is the
>> French way of saying "Koeln", and "Cologne" was borrowed by English
>> because English lacked a better equivalent...
> Indeed but its French origins are not the explanation of its
> international use. Just look at some more examples. Copenhagen rather
> than K=F8benhavn or Copenhague. I picked Cologne since a Danish friend
> once failed to understand it even though her English was extremely good
> (and quite good French as well). She only knew Cologne in the phrase
> "Eau de Cologne" and was surprised to see it on a list of flights.
> Funnier still, we were in Copenhagen airport. The big flight list had
> the city names in English only.
Copenhagen was borrowed by English because English lacked a better equivalent.
>> > If you do not realise that English is the de facto world language
> then
>> > you have not travelled much. I was in Estonia last week which
> until
>> > recently was quite well insulated from English yet, today, English
> is
>> > widely spoken and I had no trouble communicating. Only a few
> times,
>> > did my Finnish friend have an advantage over me.
>> Your Finnish friend?
> I was in Estonia with a Finnish friend. My trip was primarily to
> Helsinki but we went across to Estonia on the ferry for a day. I
> mention it since Finland and Estonia are close neighbours and although
> their languages are not related to most other European languages, they
> are related to each other. You may have expected him to have a
> significant linguistic advantage over me. He, did but it was only
> slight.
Finnish and Estonian are related to Lapp, Ingrian, Hungarian, Mari,
Komi/Cheremiss, Chuvash, Tatar, Turkish, and quite a few others spoken in
Russia. The number of Turanian (Ural-Altaic) languages in Europe (East
of the Ural Mountains) is probably higher than you thought.
>> Did you make any friends in Estonia?
> Unfortunately one day is not enough time to make a friend unless your
> standards of friendship are quite low (mine aren't). But I did speak
> to many.
>> Well, I haven't been to Estonia, but I have read several novels and
> books
>> of poetry translated into Esperanto from Estonian.
>> >> Bedaurinde, pri tio vi pravas. I atribuas tion al kunigxo de
> praktika
>> >> nescio pri la ne-usona mondo, kaj ia iluzio ke la angla jam estas
> la
>> >> establita monda lingvo, kaj ke tio estas tiel, cxar la angla estas
> defonte
>> >> pli logika kaj pli naturema ol aliajxoj.
>> >> > In consideration of this fact, I (like Z before me) am firmly of
> the
>> >> > opinion that all names must be Esperantized (as the need for
> each
>> >> > arises), so that all Esperanto speakers will use the same
> "distortion".
>> >> > Manuel
>> >> I personally favor using both the Esperanto form, and a more
> widely-used
>> >> national-language form (yes, I admit, this usually means English)
> perhaps
>> >> in brackets following the Esperanto version.
>> >> My reason for this is purely a practical one; that is, I want to
> be able
>> >> to easily connect the information I acquire in Esperanto with the
>> >> information I acquire in English or other language. I might even
> wish to
>> >> look up further information in print or on the net. In practice
> this means
>> >> I need to know the "correct" or "standard" spelling of these names
> in more
>> >> than the one language.
>> >> Persone, mi favoras uzi kaj la esperantan kaj alian, pli vaste
> konatan
>> >> nacialingvan formon (Jes, mi konfesas, tio plej ofte trovigxas
> esti la
>> >> angla) eble ene de krampoj post la esperanta.
>> >> La kialoj estas nure oportunaj; tio estas ke me volas facile
> interkonekti
>> >> la informojn kiujn mi gajnas per esperanto al tiujn, kiujn mi
> gajnas per
>> >> la angla au per alia lingvo. Mi eble volus eltrovi pliajn
> informojn cxe
>> >> presajxoj au cxe la reto. Praktike, tio necesas ke mi scias la
> "pravan" au
>> >> "kutiman" literumado pri tiuj nomoj cxe pli ol la unu lingvo.
>> > Se=E1n O'Leathl=F3bhair
>> Yea!!! Your name appears in full Gaelic gear (and 7 mute letters)!
Uh! Uh! This computer (still at the Ottawa Public Library) fails the
Guiness test.
> Thanks. Us Irish are very generous with our letters and don't stint on
> them. Actually not all the silent letters are without purpose and it
> may make a difference if they were left out. For example the first e
> in both names is silent but indicates palatalisation of the preceding
> consonant.
I was aware of this.
Finnish is also very generous with its letters, but they are not mute.
>> Similar phonetics to Russian but a poorer notation.
I know. You have a complete set of palatalized consonants.
>> Manuel
> Se=E1n O'Leathl=F3bhair
Manuel
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