Re: Indo-Aryan Migration in <<Several Waves>>

ranjit_mathews_at_yahoo.com
Date: 03/18/05 

Date: 18 Mar 2005 15:12:57 -0800

a.manans...@attbi.com wrote:
> ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com wrote:
> > a.manansala@attbi.com wrote:
> > > ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > a.manansala@attbi.com wrote:
> > > > > ranjit_mathews@yahoo.com wrote:
> > > > > > Virendra wrote:
> > > > > > > Parayan wrote:
> >
> > > > If there were "white biases" in past theories, does it follow
> that
> > > > there are western biases in CURRENT theories that the IE
language
> > > > family originated outside India?
> > >
> > > No. But I don't see that anybody is necessarily using that
> argument.
> > > There is wholly independent evidence of CURRENT bias.
> > >
> > > > Any number of linguists would drool at the prospect of being
able
> > to
> > > > overturn an established theory; why they don't do so?
> > > > Because too much work has established the opposite, that's why.
> > >
> > > But you're ignoring worldview.
> >
> > Anyone who can draw up a set of laws showing how Vedic could have
> > mutated into Hittite, Romance, Tokharian, etc, which laws explain
the
> > observed data better than Grimm's laws, Brugmann's law and all
other
> > such laws, would get to be a hero surpassing Saussure, so he
wouldn't
> > necessarily balk at worldviews if his laws are so obviously better
> > than the current ones as to obviate them. No one has been able to
draw up
> > such a set of laws, so other artifices have since been resorted to
> > such as backing off from Vedic origin to (what amounts to) PIE
origin and
> > contriving scenarios to place the PIE origin in India.
>
> You're making assumptions that IE evolved from Vedic is the only
> possible view.

It was not uncommon the first "out of India" arguments but since it was
discovered how easy it was to blow holes in it, there is now a theory
of PIE's origin in India but only those with adequate knowledge can
discern that the language talked about is PIE since it is artfully
presented in such a fashion as to lead the novice to believe that it
was an archaic Sanskrit.

> > > I'm afraid I can't agree that the only question is where IE came
> > from.
> >
> > It is the only question germane to AIT because even if you
eliminate
> > all the biases you can find in AITs but don't change your finding
> > that Aryan languages came into India, you'd still end up with an
AIT.
>
> But most mainstream Indologists don't seem to be advocating AIT. Do
> you mean AMT?

Yes; I hadn't come across the term; I presume that M stands for
migration.

> > (If IE languages didn't originate in India, it automatically
follows
> > that IE speakers came into India; the IE dialect they spoke just
> > before they first entered is arbitarily called Aryan. Therefore,
the only
> > issue that affects AITs, i.e., Aryan Influx Theories in general,
is
> > the issue of whether IE languages spread outward from India or
spread
> > outward from elsewhere into India.)
>
> That's not true. There are other issues that challenge even the
> presumptions that get you to this stage, but as I said I won't go
there
> right now.

Oh?

> > The direction of migration of IE words for flora, fauna and
artifacts
> > has been analyzed in both these:
> > http://www1.shore.net/~india/ejvs/ejvs0703/ejvs0703b.txt
> > http://www.bharatvani.org/books/ait/ch33.htm
>
> Well, even mainstream Indo-Europeanists don't agree on PIE flora,
> fauna, etc.
>
> You can see this on the different views regarding the PIE urheimat.
> Also, how do you reconcile this with the archaeology or anthropology?

I don't. As far as I can tell, the PIE urheimat was in some location
between Lake Balkash and the Baltic sea in the east-west direction and
between the Tropic of Cancer and the Arctic Circle in the north-south
direction. It is those who insist on pin-pointing the urheimat more
precisely than that who must justify their precision.

> One of the most important genetic markers used to support the AIT/AMT
> theory over the last few years, the Y chromosome M17 marker, now
> appears to have originated in South Asia. Check out Stephen
> Oppenheimer's recent book.

Fascinating! I know nothing about how the marker was used. How did they
decide to use it before they knew where it originated?

> Not only is it most diverse in this region, but this diversity is
found
> among India's tribals!
>
> Regards,
> Paul Kekai Manansala
> http://sambali.blogspot.com/

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