Re: shirt in Hindi

"ranjit_mathews@xxxxxxxxx" <ranjit_mathews@xxxxxxxxx> writes:

> Neeraj Mathur wrote:
> > "Allan Adler" <ara@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> > news:y93vf5tjb8q.fsf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > "Yusuf B Gursey" <ybg@xxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
> > >> Thackston's Persian grammar and textbook explains differences in
> > >> dialect in Iran (some of which are more conservative with respect to
> > >> the short vowels) and has an appendix on Classical Persian,
> > >> explaining the differences with modern iranian persian and some
> > >> verbal that have fallen out if use now.
> > >
> > > I asked about books on Persian a long time ago here and on
> > > soc.culture.iranian
> > > and was referred to Thackston. I few months ago I started reading a
> > > few pages a day over coffee and muffins without doing any homework but
> > > just trying to get the general idea. [snip a bit]
> >
> > Thanks to you both for the recommendation. I'll pick up Thackston
> > next time I'm at the Oriental Institute.
>
> If the book gives you enough insight to notice a phonological rule
> whereby Hindi /a/ is /@/ in Avestan, I'd be most interested in what the
> rule is. For example, Hindi garam has one /a/ and one /@/ in Avestan
> but I haven't been able to figure out what, if any, rule governs
> whether a Hindi a would be /a/ or /@/ in Avestan.

I'm not sure but I think two books are being confused. Thackston is pretty
non-technical, even though it is comprehensive. The focus is on grammar,
not on phonetics or phonology. The last three words of the preceding sentence
should alert anyone to the fact that I'm not qualified to give insights.
The book I mentioned in regard to phonetic transformations between Sanskrit
and Avestan is:

A.V.William JACKSON
An Avesta Grammar, in comparison with Sanskrit.
Part I: Phonology, inflection, word-formation with an intro. on the Avesta
Darmstadt: Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft 1968

I no longer have the book out, but I just took a quick look at my notes
on pp.xxxi-xxxii, which give phonetic rules for converting between Avestan and
Sanskrit. I copied some of it out into my notebook and then tried to make
a little sense of what I had copied. Jackson (section 53) writes: "The
language of the Avesta is most closely allied to the Sanskrit, though
individually quite distinct from the latter. Together they may be classed
as making up an Indo-Iranian group. Almost any Sanskrit word may be changed
at once into an Avestan equivalent, or vice versa, merely by applying
certain phonetic laws. As an example may be taken the metrical stanza
Yt.106 in the Avesta...". I'll forgo examples for want of suitable ascii
fonts. In section 56, Jackson writes: "In its phonology, the Avesta agrees
with the Sanskrit in its vowels in general, but the Avesta shows a greater
variety in using e- and o- sounds instead of a. Final vowels, except O
(my ad hoc notation for a long o) are shortened as a rule". Then he
gets more specific:
"The Skt. diphthong E appears in Av. as aE, Oi, E (final)."
"Skt. O appears in Av. ao,?u,O (final)..." (where ? is that 180 degree
rotated e symbol).
"A striking peculiarity in Av., moreover, is the introduction of epenthetic
vowels and help sounds, giving rise to improper diphthongs...."

I regret I can't give the examples. I had to guess what epenthetic vowels
were and arrived at the hypothesis that it is something like the process
by which the word "and" is pronounced by some people in Bowling Greek, KY,
as a two syllable word: "A-yund".

"The Skt. voiceless stops k,t,p generally become spirants (unprintable
letter looking like h, unprintable letter looking like eth or thorn in
OE, f)....".

The original voiced apsirates gh, dh, bh become in Av. simply voiced stops
g,d,b. They are so preserved in the old GAthA dialect; the younger dialect
commonly resolves them again before consonants and between vowels into
voiced spirants. Thus..."

Well, I'll skip the consonants, except: "Final -as of Sanskrit appears
regularly as O. Thus..."

At that point, I have a note about how the phonetic rules are presented
in more detail in the chapters on phonology.

In section 57: "The GAthA dialect regularly lengthens all final vowels. It
frequently inserts the anaptyctic vowels: ..." and at that point I found
out that the notions of epenthesis and anaptyxis are discussed on pp.25-27.

Then I worked through the examples again, trying to figure out them, the
rules and the phonetic notation from each other. I wrote: "One common
transformation is Skt. a -> ? Av. This is especially true before m and n,
which is the case for all the examples below...", where ? is the rotated e
again. Also, I have: "The transformation Skt. a,A -> O Av. is noted on p.12
of Jackson, section 39, but under the assumption that the a,A precedes a
bilabial vowel u,U,o or rarely r+consonant...."

I mention these last two because Ranjit asked about some Sanskrit versions
of a. Anyway, I would look in Jackson, since he knows what he is talking
about, and if I knew what I was talking about, I might also know a better
book than Jackson.

Around the time I worked through this, I was pretty enthusiastic about
the idea one could do this to closely related languages by explicit rules
and asked about it on sci.lang, but as I recall I wasn't led to any other
published examples that were as explicit and illustrative and illuminating
as Jackson's example of Sanskrit and Avestan. I'd still like to see more,
even if I have to read the source code of the English -> German accent
program to find one.

I apologize for not being able to provide the phonetic examples better.
I never studied phonetics and am completely ignorant of all notations for
them, including the ones used in postings on this newsgroup. If there were
a truly free and painless way to acquire this competence, one I could carry
out for a few minutes a day over coffee and muffins over a period of weeks or
months, I think I'd be better off with it, so I'd be glad to know of such a
regimen. I'm pretty focused on mathematics and if I were going to take a lot
of time to do something else, it would be music before phonetics.
--
Ignorantly,
Allan Adler <ara@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
* Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT CSAIL. My actions and
* comments do not reflect in any way on MIT. Also, I am nowhere near Boston.
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: shirt in Hindi
    ... > not on phonetics or phonology. ... > The book I mentioned in regard to phonetic transformations between Sanskrit ... > and Avestan is: ... Final vowels, except O ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: shirt in Hindi
    ... > not on phonetics or phonology. ... > and Avestan is: ... > An Avesta Grammar, in comparison with Sanskrit. ... Final vowels, except ...
    (sci.lang)
Quantcast