Re: shirt in Hindi


Allan Adler wrote:
> "ranjit_mathews@xxxxxxxxx" <ranjit_mathews@xxxxxxxxx> writes:
>
> > Neeraj Mathur wrote:
> > > "Allan Adler" <ara@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
> > > news:y93vf5tjb8q.fsf@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> > > > "Yusuf B Gursey" <ybg@xxxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
> > > >> Thackston's Persian grammar and textbook explains differences
in
> > > >> dialect in Iran (some of which are more conservative with
respect to
> > > >> the short vowels) and has an appendix on Classical Persian,
> > > >> explaining the differences with modern iranian persian and
some
> > > >> verbal that have fallen out if use now.
> > > >
> > > > I asked about books on Persian a long time ago here and on
> > > > soc.culture.iranian
> > > > and was referred to Thackston. I few months ago I started
reading a
> > > > few pages a day over coffee and muffins without doing any
homework but
> > > > just trying to get the general idea. [snip a bit]
> > >
> > > Thanks to you both for the recommendation. I'll pick up Thackston
> > > next time I'm at the Oriental Institute.
> >
> > If the book gives you enough insight to notice a phonological rule
> > whereby Hindi /a/ is /@/ in Avestan, I'd be most interested in what
the
> > rule is. For example, Hindi garam has one /a/ and one /@/ in
Avestan
> > but I haven't been able to figure out what, if any, rule governs
> > whether a Hindi a would be /a/ or /@/ in Avestan.
>
> I'm not sure but I think two books are being confused. Thackston is
pretty
> non-technical, even though it is comprehensive. The focus is on
grammar,
> not on phonetics or phonology. The last three words of the preceding
sentence
> should alert anyone to the fact that I'm not qualified to give
insights.
> The book I mentioned in regard to phonetic transformations between
Sanskrit
> and Avestan is:
>
> A.V.William JACKSON
> An Avesta Grammar, in comparison with Sanskrit.
> Part I: Phonology, inflection, word-formation with an intro. on the
Avesta
> Darmstadt: Wissenschaftliche Buchgesellschaft 1968
>
> I no longer have the book out, but I just took a quick look at my
notes
> on pp.xxxi-xxxii, which give phonetic rules for converting between
Avestan
> and Sanskrit. I copied some of it out into my notebook and then tried
to
> make a little sense of what I had copied. Jackson (section 53)
writes: "The
> language of the Avesta is most closely allied to the Sanskrit, though
> individually quite distinct from the latter. Together they may be
classed
> as making up an Indo-Iranian group. Almost any Sanskrit word may be
changed
> at once into an Avestan equivalent, or vice versa, merely by applying
> certain phonetic laws.

Thank you very much for the reference! Most fascinating but I'd be
"knockable" down with a feather if someone can show a law by which
Vedic vivasvat may be changed at once to Avestan viva~hvat (I can't
remember whether one of the a's was a schwa in the Avestan spelling). I
haven't fully understood the phonetic value of what I've reproduced as
~; when I looked at it, Avestan seemed to have two anusvAras, one used
before stops, and the other one being used before fricatives and
possibly being pronounced like the IPA (not ASCII IPA) capital N but
I've called it ~ since it's also conceivable that it nasalized the
preceding vowel. Sanskrit ansusvara before a fricative is ambiguous in
current speech; saMsAr(a) can be [sa~sAr], [samsAr] or [sansAr] in
Hindi spoken with various accents.

> As an example may be taken the metrical stanza
> Yt.106 in the Avesta...". I'll forgo examples for want of suitable
ascii
> fonts. In section 56, Jackson writes: "In its phonology, the Avesta
agrees
> with the Sanskrit in its vowels in general, but the Avesta shows a
greater
> variety in using e- and o- sounds instead of a. Final vowels, except
O
> (my ad hoc notation for a long o) are shortened as a rule". Then he
> gets more specific:
> "The Skt. diphthong E appears in Av. as aE, Oi, E (final)."
> "Skt. O appears in Av. ao,?u,O (final)..." (where ? is that 180
degree
> rotated e symbol).
> "A striking peculiarity in Av., moreover, is the introduction of
epenthetic
> vowels and help sounds, giving rise to improper diphthongs...."
>
> I regret I can't give the examples. I had to guess what epenthetic
vowels
> were and arrived at the hypothesis that it is something like the
process
> by which the word "and" is pronounced by some people in Bowling
Greek, KY,
> as a two syllable word: "A-yund".
>
> "The Skt. voiceless stops k,t,p generally become spirants
(unprintable
> letter looking like h, unprintable letter looking like eth or thorn
in
> OE, f)....".

[x],[T],[f] in ASCII IPA.

> The original voiced apsirates gh, dh, bh become in Av. simply voiced
stops
> g,d,b. They are so preserved in the old GAthA dialect; the younger
dialect
> commonly resolves them again before consonants and between vowels
into
> voiced spirants. Thus..."
>
> Well, I'll skip the consonants, except: "Final -as of Sanskrit
appears
> regularly as O. Thus..."

So, a Sanskrit bas relief would become a bO relief:-)

> At that point, I have a note about how the phonetic rules are
presented
> in more detail in the chapters on phonology.
>
> In section 57: "The GAthA dialect regularly lengthens all final
vowels. It
> frequently inserts the anaptyctic vowels: ..." and at that point I
found
> out that the notions of epenthesis and anaptyxis are discussed on
pp.25-27.
>
> Then I worked through the examples again, trying to figure out them,
the
> rules and the phonetic notation from each other. I wrote: "One common
> transformation is Skt. a -> ? Av. This is especially true before m
and n,
> which is the case for all the examples below...", where ? is the
rotated e
> again.

Your ? is [@] in ASCII IPA.

> Also, I have: "The transformation Skt. a,A -> O Av. is noted on p.12
> of Jackson, section 39, but under the assumption that the a,A
precedes a
> bilabial vowel u,U,o or rarely r+consonant...."

Interesting; no example with a Sanskrit cognate comes to mind. [xOrd@
avest@] has [O] before r+consonant but I don't know that [kArd@] means
anything in Sanskrit. An example comes to mind of Sanskrit A being
Avestan O in a context not given here; as far as I can remember, it was
something like Sanskrit prAta being Avestan frOSta.

> I mention these last two because Ranjit asked about some Sanskrit
versions
> of a. Anyway, I would look in Jackson, since he knows what he is
talking
> about, and if I knew what I was talking about, I might also know a
better
> book than Jackson.

Thanks; I'll look at Jackson if I can find it.

> Around the time I worked through this, I was pretty enthusiastic
about
> the idea one could do this to closely related languages by explicit
rules
> and asked about it on sci.lang, but as I recall I wasn't led to any
other
> published examples that were as explicit and illustrative and
illuminating
> as Jackson's example of Sanskrit and Avestan. I'd still like to see
more,
> even if I have to read the source code of the English -> German
accent
> program to find one.

There's such a program? Where can I find it?

> I apologize for not being able to provide the phonetic examples
better.

They were presented well enough to be comprehensible.

> I never studied phonetics and am completely ignorant of all notations
for
> them, including the ones used in postings on this newsgroup. If there
were
> a truly free and painless way to acquire this competence, one I could
carry
> out for a few minutes a day over coffee and muffins over a period of
weeks
> or months, I think I'd be better off with it, so I'd be glad to know
of such
> a regimen. I'm pretty focused on mathematics and if I were going to
take a
> lot of time to do something else, it would be music before phonetics.
> --
> Ignorantly,
> Allan Adler <ara@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
> * Disclaimer: I am a guest and *not* a member of the MIT CSAIL. My
actions and
> * comments do not reflect in any way on MIT. Also, I am nowhere near
Boston.

.

Relevant Pages

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