Re: english words absorbed into Asian languages during WW2


Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
>
> > > > I don't know Kahn and cannot comment on his claims but my
Tagalog
> > > > dictionary lists "bundo'k" as if it is a native word. I
checked with a
> > > > couple of Filipinos today and they do not regard it as foreign.
It
> > > > participates in Tagalog grammar as if it were native e.g.
> > > > "ma'mumundo'k" = "mountaineer". (The ' marks should be read as
acute
> > > > accents on the preceding vowel).
>
> (Why not just type á ó?)

I frequently see the accents in my signature mangled so I tried to
avoid the problem.

> > > Why would a Tagalog word not have a cognate in a Micronesian
language?
> > > I.e., what's your point? No one is suggesting Tagalog borrowed it
from
> > > English or anywhere else.
> >
> > I was not making a point, is that required? I was just supplying
some
> > data that others may find useful.
>
> Usually when one supplies data, one does so for a reason! And your
> uncertainty as to its status -- "as if it is a native word," "do not
> regard it as foreign" -- suggests you were entertaining the
possibility
> that Tagalog got it from English (or elsewhere) recently.

I saw a disagreement about the origin of this word. I was able to
supply some information about it. I don't always have an ulterior
motive for my actions. Do you?

The uncertainty was because I do not have strong evidence of its native
status. My dictionary does not state a source but I am not sure if it
would if the source was not European. The Filipinos I have asked
regard it as a native word. If that is enough for you then I am
certain that it is native. Since I am an amateur in this field, I try
to avoid strong claims. I certainly was not suggesting that "bundok"
was a borrowing into Tagalog.

> > Of course, the Tagalog word could be a cognate of your unspecified
word
> > in an unspecified Micronesian language. On the other hand, it
could
> > also be the source of "boondocks" itself. If it is a cognate of
the
> > real source then it is one that matches the English word at least
as
> > well.
> >
> > What is the actual word and language that you believe to be the
source
> > of "boondocks"? Why are you so confident that it is the source
rather
> > than the Tagalog word? There were a lot of Americans in the
> > Philippines before, during, and after the war.
>
> I read it in a book.

And you believe everything that you read in every book?

> Whichever book it was -- I read a lot about Micronesia about 15 years
> ago -- left the impression that in whichever Micronesian language was
> cited, the meaning was a better match than is the Tagalog meaning you
> cite.

You don't remember the book, the claimed language, or the claimed word
yet you are still sure that it is correct?

> > Is there necessarily only one correct answer? Is it not possible
that
> > some Americans took it from one place and others from another?
>
> It would be unlikely to be borrowed in exactly the same form and
meaning
> on two separate occasions. The sense 'mountain/large hill' isn't
> particularly close to the American sense of 'out in the middle of
> nowhere'.

The common meaning of "bundok" is hill or mountain but it is also used
when I would say: "The middle of nowhere". The Filipinos that I have
asked do not regard the American usage as conflicting with their usage,
just more restricted. If you heard an English speaker say: "He is from
the hills", would you not interpret as being similar to: "from the
middle of nowhere / boondocks". If two sources are not possible then I
would feel that Tagalog has the better claim (just my non-expert
opinion).

> > > > The meaning is "mountain" or "large hill". It can be used in a
similar
> > > > sense to "from the boondocks" but it is also used in a more
prosaic
> > > > manner.
> > > >
> > > > "Boondocks" does not appear to be common in UK English. I
learnt the
> > > > word in Tagalog before I learnt it in English.
> > >
> > > Were there British soldiers in the North Pacific during WWII?
> >
> > I am not familiar with that area of WWII history. My guess would
be
> > that few, if any, British soldiers were in the area. Certainly
much
>
> Then it's not surprising that the word isn't known in Britain.

Or we feel that the need is well met by the expression: "The middle of
nowhere". Even when there is significant contact, not all words are
borrowed. There was significant contact between the Brits and the
Indians but not all Hindi and Tamil words were adopted into English.

> > fewer than Americans. Anyway, even if there were many Brits there,
> > they may not have found this a useful word to import into their own
> > language. The only fact that I am claiming here is that I heard
this
> > word in Tagalog before I heard it in English. When later, I heard
it
> > from an American, I was surprised since he did not have any
connection
> > to the Philippines. It turned out that he was unaware of a
Filipino
> > connection or its true source (if different).
>
> Americans, perhaps mistakenly, associate it with the North Pacific
> campaign.
> --
> Peter T. Daniels grammatim@xxxxxxx

--
Seán O'Leathlóbhair

.

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