Re: How close is Vietnamese to Mandarin or Cantonese?

benlizross wrote:
>
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
> > Lee Sau Dan wrote:
> > >
> > > >>>>> "benlizross" == benlizross <benlizro@xxxxxxxxxx> writes:
> > >
> > > >> > FYI, "typhoon" is [t'Oi22 fUN55] in Cantonese. So, if you
> > > >> > think "typhoon" came from Cantonese, you not only have to
> > > >> > explain the discrepancy in the final "n", but also the
> > > >> > wrongly spelt diphthong in the first syllable.
> > > >>
> > > >> Can you point to _any_ English word that ends with, or even
> > > >> contains, the sequence "oong" /uwN/? -- Peter T. Daniels
> > > >> grammatim@xxxxxxx
> > >
> > > benlizross> Is every little phonotactic gap like this assumed to
> > > benlizross> be the result of a Rule of English Phonology? I
> > > benlizross> believe the Aussies have /uN/ in "boong". (And maybe
> > > benlizross> some sinophiles pronounce names like "Fung" and "Sung"
> > > benlizross> that way.) Even if we imagine that /uwN/ is somehow
> > > benlizross> impossible, would not /uN/ be a possible English form
> > > benlizross> for the Cantonese word? FWIW OED has an 1806 citation
> > > benlizross> in which the word is spelled <ty-foong>.
> >
> > I'm trying to explain to LSD that absence of /N/ in the English word
> > does not require absence of /N/ in the source language. The /uN/
> > sequence in the source language (for instance, Cantonese) should yield
> > /uwn/ in English.
>
> What I'm questioning is whether you have a theory which predicts
> _exactly_ this outcome. And I don't see it so far.

There can't be a "theory" unless there's a pattern. What are some other
[-uwN] words that have been borrowed by English? /uwN/ doesn't exist in
English, so it has to come in differently. ("Boong" was mentioned here a
few days ago -- as an insulting term for Australian native?, which makes
it an oddity, an "expressive," if you will, outside normal phonology as
"Bach" is.)

If, of course, Australian English has a plethora of words borrowed from
Australian languages that end in -oong, then a new (Firthian) subsystem
has arisen, and if "typhoon" had been borrowed in Australia from
Cantonese in the last century or so, it probably would have been
"typhoong."
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@xxxxxxx
.