Re: english words absorbed into Asian languages during WW2


benlizross wrote:
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> >
> > benlizross wrote:
> > >
> > > Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > >
> > > > benlizross wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > benlizross wrote:
> > > > > > > Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > > The common meaning of "bundok" is hill or mountain
but it is also used
> > > > > > > > > when I would say: "The middle of nowhere". The
Filipinos that I have
> > > > > > > > > asked do not regard the American usage as conflicting
with their usage,
> > > > > > > > > just more restricted. If you heard an English
speaker say: "He is from
> > > > > > > > > the hills", would you not interpret as being similar
to: "from the
> > > > > > > > > middle of nowhere / boondocks".
> > > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > No. I'd think it referred literally to that rolling
higher ground over
> > > > > > > > there, or else to a cultural group of "hillbillies."
> > > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > > Peter T. Daniels
grammatim@xxxxxxx
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > I think "middle of nowhere" is a somewhat misleading
gloss. Better
> > > > > > > "rough country; jungle; an isolated or wild region"
(OED), or /"remote
> > > > > > > places, rural regions" (Chapman). Relative to where most
people live,
> > > > > > > the mountains are uncultivated, unpopulated, uncivilized
and difficult
> > > > > > > of access. It is no accident that "hillbillies" live
there. Of course,
> > > > > > > to a big-city person such as yourself, such places are
"nowhere", or
> > > > > > > "I-don't-know-where". And of course the meaning is quite
capable of
> > > > > > > broadening: if the words of the 1965 pop song "Down in
the boondocks"
> > > > > > > reflect actual usage, it could just refer to the wrong
side of town.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Ross Clark
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I did not intend to suggest that "middle of nowhere" was an
exact
> > > > > > translation but only that the phrases are liable to be used
in similar
> > > > > > circumstances. When a Filipino is likely to say: "We are
in the
> > > > > > boondocks", I would probably say: "We are in the middle of
nowhere".
> > > > > > In both cases, we just mean that we are far from what we
regard as
> > > > > > civilisation. If your home is Manila then most of the rest
of country
> > > > > > may be the boondocks.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --
> > > > > > Seán O'Leathlóbhair
> > > > >
> > > > > Actually the "middle of nowhere" gloss was originally given
by Peter,
> > > > > who was claiming to see no connection between that and
"mountain". So my
> > > > > remarks were directed at him; I don't think you and I
disagree.
> > > >
> > > > "Boondocks" suggests featureless, flat terrain -- the Great
Plains, the
> > > > Badlands, the scrubland; or the jungle.
> > > >
> > > > American mountains are a goal, sometimes a sacred place, a
topos in
> > > > painting, photography, and literature -- not, though, "the
middle of
> > > > nowhere." Contrast the OED and the Chapman definitions!
> > > > --
> > > > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@xxxxxxx
> > >
> > > Geez, Peter, you sound like a literary critic, and you probably
have the
> > > utter self-assurance that goes with it, so I won't try to argue
with
> > > your grandiloquent generalizations about "American mountains"
(and
> > > British mountains), highly disputable though they are. I will
accept
> > > them as testimony that _for you_ there is no conceptual
connection
> > > between "boondocks" and mountains. And that's entirely possible,
a
> > > century after the word entered the language. What I am trying to
get you
> > > to do is to step outside the world of Peter T.Daniels 2005 and
see that
> > > there is in fact a plausible semantic connection between the
Tagalog
> > > word for "mountain", as it would have been heard by US Marines
ca.1900,
> > > and the various senses of "boondock" which we have seen
developing in
> > > American English.
> >
> > 1900 is a century closer to discourse of "the beautiful" and "the
> > sublime" -- which originated, incidentally, with Ruskin in England
in
> > IIRC 1847, exalting the Gothic over the Classical -- which was a
> > philosophy that captured the Hudson River School painters of that
era: a
> > school that had a branch in (are you ready for this) New Zealand.
(There
> > was a fascinating show at the Corcoran some years ago, that paired
> > famous paintings by Cole, Church, etc., with their lesser known
> > counterparts from the Antipodes.)
> >
> > Before the Hudson River School painters were thrilled by the
Catskills,
> > they painted Niagara Falls; and then they went west and painted the
> > Rockies. New Zealand has such terrain (as Mr. Jackson has displayed
on
> > the wide screen), but England doesn't. Nor does the Philippines.
The
> > connotations of mountains are different here, and they don't
include
> > "boondock"hood.
> > --
> > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@xxxxxxx
>
> OK, I take it back, an art critic. Once again, I will leave it to
others
> to dispute your dogmatic statements about matters you know little of.

> So on the basis of this slide-show, you have managed to convince
> yourself that no American could ever have had "boondockish" thoughts
> about mountains, and therefore you continue to prefer an etymology
which
> derives "boondocks" from an unknown word, in an unknown language (on
the
> testimony of an unknown writer of an unknown book) at a time and
place
> which the documentary record shows to be impossible?

He seems to have backed off slightly from the Caroline Island claim,
without actually saying so or presenting any coherent thought on the
subject. I took this as his graceful way of admitting he was wrong, so
that he could move on to being wrong about other things (badlands
necessarily being flat, for example).

Richard R. Hershberger

.

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