Re: How close is Vietnamese to Mandarin or Cantonese?

Peter T. Daniels wrote:
>
> benlizross wrote:
> >
> > Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > >
> > > benlizross wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > benlizross wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > > (It's "'outside normal phonology'" because it's [+foreign]. Just like
> > > > > > > the alleged "mung.")
> > > > > > > --
> > > > > > > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@xxxxxxx
> > > > > >
> > > > > > And your evidence that "boong" is [+foreign] is....that it's outside
> > > > > > normal phonology??
> > > > >
> > > > > That's the most usual clue that items are [+foreign].
> > > >
> > > > But you have just stated that it is "outside normal phonology" because
> > > > it's [+foreign]! What's going on here?
> > >
> > > Exactly. [+foreign] marks items that don't behave normally.
> >
> > So when you find a word that doesn't fit some phonological rule you want
> > to write, you mark it as "[+foreign]", even though the imputation of
> > foreignness may be without actual foundation. This being so, you cannot
> > say "it is outside normal phonology because it is [+foreign]" without
> > circularity.
>
> And, there are even patterns of foreignness!
>
> Bloomfield tried writing "Postulates" like Euclid's. Like Euclid, he had
> to start with definitions and axioms. Or have you managed to come up
> with some form of linguistic analysis that is absolutely devoid of any
> "circularity" at all?

Well, I just advised you how to avoid it in this case.

>
> > > > > > Bach-with-a-[x] is spoken by people who know some German and are
> > > > >
> > > > > And also by people who know no German but know about "ach."
> > > >
> > > > And what language is "ach"?
> > >
> > > I'm sure I first got it through Yiddish. Some of my grandmother's
> > > friends down the hall spoke mostly Yiddish, and she had even picked some
> > > up (probably from the pre- and post-War refugees; she was born in
> > > Brooklyn in 1891).
>
> (I forgot to add I didn't have German until 10th grade.)
>
> > Okay, so some people may also use the [x] because they are treating
> > "Bach" as if it were Yiddish.
>
> Why would anyone suppose that "Bach" is Yiddish? If anyone knows
> anything about Bach, they know that he was a church musician (with 22
> children).

Then what were you talking about when you said that people pronounced
"Bach" with a [x] because they 'know about "ach"'?

Ross Clark

> > > > > > introducing German elements into their English pronunciation. "Boong" is
> > > > > > spoken by iggerant Aussies who would have no idea of its origin.
> > > > >
> > > > > Since it means 'nasty Abo', wouldn't they expect it comes from some Abo
> > > > > jibber-jabber?
> > > >
> > > > I don't imagine they give it any thought at all.
> > >
> > > But if they did, that's what they'd expect.
> --
> Peter T. Daniels grammatim@xxxxxxx
.

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