Re: Chinese is Time Ordered.

phippsmartin@xxxxxxxxxxx wrote: 
Lee Sau Dan wrote:


Do you count it as "time-order", that in Chinese we can say "if A 

then

B" but not "B if A"? We say "After A, B happens" but not "B 

happens

after A". BUT, we do say "Before A, B happens", not "B happens 

before

A".

How can you explain this last case using your time-order theory? 


Well, we could say that the rule that subordinate clauses come before
the main clause takes precedence over time-ordering.  Or I could argue
that "time-ordering" isn't the right term, that what is really
important is cause and effect, that causes (or reasons) come before
effects (or results).  So if I have to put on my uniform before I go to
school then the correct Chinese sentence would have the order "Before I
go to school, I have to put on my uniform."  This is consistent with
the normal Chinese word order "Because (reason) therefore (result)."


   phippsmartin> Consider this example taken from the book referred
   phippsmartin> to above:

   phippsmartin> "After washing his face, brushing his teeth and
   phippsmartin> undressing, he went to bed."

   phippsmartin> In English we would be more likely to say "He went
   phippsmartin> to bed after washing his face, brushing his teeth
   phippsmartin> and undressing."

Try this again with a "before ..." phrase. Time order? 


Which means the book gave a bad example.  I quote Yip Po-Ching and Don
Rimmington when they say "[T]hese bare verbs... are arranged in
accordance with an intrinsic time sequence".  Apparently not all
Chinese sentences are arranged in time order.  The idea does, however,
help to understand the following example.


   phippsmartin> In English we say
   phippsmartin> "I took the milk from the refrigerator."
   phippsmartin> but in Chinese you would have to say
   phippsmartin> "I, from the refrigerator, took the milk."
   phippsmartin> and yet it would be normal and natural to say in
   phippsmartin> both Chinese and English
   phippsmartin> "I put the milk in the refrigerator."

Like the cake-making example, this only illustrates the order:

    {topic}, {comment}

and in the {comment}:

   {method} {source} {verb} {object} {destination}

e.g.

	I; wear glove, from oven, take cake, to table.

It doesn't have to do with time. 


Well, it does in this example you just gave.  Consider the order of the
actions: you put on the glove, you go to the oven, you take the cake
and you bring it to the table.  The order in which you arrange the
comments is best explained by time ordering, so Yip Po-Ching and Don
Rimmington have made a valid point.

Mind you, I suppose English sentences are usually time ordered and yet
if I were to say "I've had a busy day: I've washed the car, walked the
dog and finished marking the tests" then there would be no requirement
that I actually did these things in the order I listed them.  Yip
Po-Ching and Don Rimmington are claiming that there is such a
requirement in the equivalent Chinese sentence.


And you also have to understand that "prepositions" in Chinese 

are

indeed specialized *verbs*. So, in the above sentence, 

"wear",

"from", "took", "to" look pretty parallel to each other. It's 

a

topic-comment construction, with multiple comments. The 

comment

consists of many VO phrases, where the distinction of V 

and

preposition is vague. 


I know, so the sentences "I, from the refrigerator, took the milk." and
"I put the milk in the refrigerator." could both be described as SVOVO.


There IS grammar in Chinese, but one that doesn't fit in 

the

Greco-Latin mould. 


Indeed.  Which is why Chinese people generally look at what we call
"grammar" and say "We don't have that."  Unfortunately, adult learners
of a second language need to understand how the grammar of that
language differs from their own.  There's no getting around that.

Martin 


"I from (the) refrigerator took (the) milk."
Yes, this is the natural, direct way to say this phase in Chinese.

may be rephased loosely as ...

This milk was taken from the refrigerator.
"This milk is from refrigerator take -en."

*tense is deduced from the rest of the context.

Simple but it seems to need to be put in passive voice.

To put it in active voice is a little clumsy; need to add a few words; thus not commonly used.

"I took the milk from the refrigerator."
"I take 's milk is from refrigerator com -ing."

As you see it doesn't have anything to do with cause and effect but the word order is not as flexible as in English in occassions.
.

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