Re: _Verum Et Factum Convertuntur_ (or: Surprised By Syntax)

In article <3g6b70Fas7rlU1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
Harlan Messinger <hmessinger.removethis@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
>My comments below are, obviously, addressed to Stanley Fish, who isn't
>here to read them. Is there a rhetorical term for this, addressing a
>person who isn't present for the benefit/interest of people who are?

While I would not go so far as the hyperbole which was used
in the material quoted, my opinion of the use of English by
students is comparable.

>JHM wrote:
>> _Verum Et Factum Convertuntur_ (or: Surprised By Syntax)
>> 1 June 2005

..................

>[snip]
<> On the first day of my freshman writing class I give the students this
<> assignment: You will be divided into groups and by the end of the
<> semester each group will be expected to have created its own language,
<> complete with a syntax, a lexicon, a text, rules for translating the
<> text and strategies for teaching your language to fellow students. The
<> language you create cannot be English or a slightly coded version of
<> English, but it must be capable of indicating the distinctions -
<> between tense, number, manner, mood, agency and the like - that English
<> enables us to make.

>Why must it be capable of indicating the distinctions that English in
>particular enables us to make?

Otherwise, it would not be an adequate substitute for English.
Languages are not that great as it is, and lowering the level
does not make them any better.

>[snip]

<> The next step (and this one takes weeks) is to explore the devices by
<> which English indicates and distinguishes between the various
<> components of these interactions. If in every sentence someone is doing
<> something to someone or something else, how does English allow you to
<> tell who is the doer and whom (or what) is the doee; and how do you
<> know whether there is one doer or many; and what tells you that the
<> doer is doing what he or she does in this way and at this time rather
<> than another?

>Since all your students *speak* English, and you can understand them
>when they speak,

For many of them, it is unclear what language they speak.
It is not the Queen's English, or as well structured as
Ebonics, which really is not that hard to understand, if
spoken slowly, or written. The sequence of words they
utter is so poorly structured that one often cannot tell
the doer and the doee; the meaning of the words, and even
more the meaning of their order, is ala Humpty Dumpty.

they obviously know how to indicate this, whether or
>not consciously, and they know all the other rules too.

You have not been talking to many of them.

One would think
>from your discussion that you were teaching language to a bunch of
>anaglots. The problem isn't whether or not they apply linguistic rules,
>the problem is why they have trouble "writing"with them.

That is another problem, and I doubt that anyone knows how
to teach that. But they are close to being literary anaglots,
although this may be the wrong word for writing.

>[snip]
<> In English, for example, most plurals are formed by adding an "s" to
<> nouns. Is that the only way to indicate the difference between singular
<> and plural? Obviously not. But the language you create, I tell them,
<> must have some regular and abstract way of conveying that distinction.

>Again, why?

You do not see the importance of syntax, and even precise
semantics. I believe the greatest hindrance to the development
of mathematics among the Greeks was the lack of what is usually
called "algebraic notation", and which should be added to all
"natural" languages. It is pure syntax, with little semantics,
and highly precise, and does apply to ordinary language.

Why do you think we have computer languages? Machine language,
or assembler language, are adequate for anything. The difference
is syntax; in my opinion, the syntax is not flexible enough.
But if the language takes two pages to convey what could be clearly
done in one line, how well will something be understood?
--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
.

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