Re: Obstruent cluster voicing in Czech

"piotrpanek" <piotrpanekQQQ@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> a écrit dans le message de
news: dab5l1$otg$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> G. Leo Sahakian napisał(a):
> >
> > unlike kb- > [gb-] and kd- > [gd-] (kbelík, kde) regressive voicing does
not
> > take place when j, r, ř, l, v are preceded by a voiceless stop; it's
rather
> > the other way round;
>
> I don't know about Czech, but in Polish it is also true for other
> sonorants (w (ł),m,n,n\ (ń) and vowels) - they do not cause regressive
> voicing, which is typical for all obstruents exept from /v/ (which
> atypically is devoiced into [f]).

I suppose you mean (voiced) obstruents other than v (written w in pl.)
typically voice preceding surds but that v itself in the same situation
becomes f? then tf-, cf-, czf-, ćf-, sf-, szf-, śf-, ?
other languages don't seem to have any problems with a surd followed by
(voiced) v: de. kwal, zwei, twenter, schwer, swinemünde, etc., sw. svensk,
ru;, uk, cs. etc. svoboda, freedom; some people may find it easier to use
bilabial v in similar cases, wich makes v even more like an approximant;
languages having such clusters lack the semi-vowel w (leave aside w < ł
(velar l)).
>
> > this is not very noticeable
>
> True. Most of Polish native speakers don't realise that voiceless j, w
> (ł), l, r, m, n ever exist.

voiceless j is ç (de. ich), voiceless w is a separate phoneme for those en.
speakers who distinguish witch and which, the others occur in welsh (ll, rh,
mh, nh and ngh).
>
> > because j, r, ř, l, v have no corresponding voiceless fricatives as
separate
> > phonemes in czech (f is foreign to slavonic)
>
> What do you mean as "foreign"?

I mean in slav. f exists theoretically only in borrowings, except for v
becoming f in certain situations (end of word, before a surd).
> Etymologically f and v might develop independently, but nowadays f is a
> normal phoneme and voiceless allophone of /v/. Even if v evolved from u
> and f was borrowed into Protoslavic from Protogermanic, Protoceltic or
> Proto-whatever, the sound of f exists in Slavic languages for more than
> thousand years...
>
> ; tw becomes (optionally?) [tf]
>
> Obligatory (sth like [tv] may occur in hypercorrect, spelling
> pronunciation, but generally is technically impossible to be pronounced
> by a Pole).

my oh my! is this a genetic deficiency? what about half a pole? (e.g.
Chopin; could it be why he never composed a quartet or a quintet?)
> Since liquids are transparent for (de)voicing (at least
in
> Polish) it also occurs in trw-, plw-, krw- etc. (trwać - [tr.fats\] etc.)
> In some dialects (eg. in Great Polish which was a dominant when Polish
> spelling was established, and now it is realised in spelling despite the
> actual pronunciation) however it is [trvats\], but in /tv/, /sv/, /kv/,
> /xv/ etc. /v/ is always realised as [f].

it would be very clumsy to mark in spelling all phonetic accidents, like
tac, tages: this is what they did in mhg. whereas ohg. and nhg. write more
logically tag, tages; maybe final devoicing did not yet occur in ohg.;
likewise fr. writes neuf m., neuve f.; why not say v becomes [f] when final
and write neuv; dictionary lookup and programming would be easier; suppose I
want to look up chauve (bald) in the dict.; do I go for chauf? in fact I
won't find it; as it happens, chauve is also m.; dutch is likewise too
phonetic since the last reform: f~v, o~oo, s~z etc. alternate in the same
word according to number, case (what remains of it), tense, person; they
used to write leveren (deliver) and formeeren (to form); now it is leveren
and formeren, so you can no longer guess the stressed syllable (le-
and -me-); reading sanskrit is a nightmare, because of sandhi: the end of a
word merges with the beginning of the following, with vowel and consonant
elision, lengthening, contraction, accomodation; one wonders if such a
language has ever been spoken! time has taken its toll: look at hindi etc.;
despite all that it's a remarkable language, as long as you don't have to
speak it.
tu.: they used to write ktb (in ar. script) (book); now they write kitabı
(kitabi with a dotless i at the end), kitaba, but kitap, kitaplar; when I
learn kitap, I must remember that the stem is kitab- and not kitap-; if I
want to look up kitaba, do I go to kitap- or kitab-; you may think: where's
the problem? of course kitap; not so fast; there are words that keep the
voiced consonant even at the end: ad (at is another word); hac [hadʒ] (haç
is another w.); if that were not enough, hac has for stem hacc-; so if you
come across, say, cep (pocket), you may wonder is it cepi, cebi, ceppi or
cebbi whereas if you wrote cep, or ceb, or cepp, or cebb, all pronounced
[dʒep], it would spare you one headache; of course kitap is a big
improvement over ktb, but do you absolutely have to replace one hardship by
another?
>
> > in pol. and ufać < upъvati, but I don't know about other slav.
languages.
>
> In all Slavic languages the name of France starts with [f]. In Russian

naturally: it's foreign.
> some f's have etymology in old Greek aspirated t.

after th had become fricative ϑ; before the revolution ru. had a letter Ѳѳ
called fita (< thêta),used only for borrowed thêta, like Feodor, Fëdor,
Afanasiev, Timofej, etc.; f being the nearest ru. sound it was used for ϑ;
nowadays thes words are written with odinary f (ф).
> Nowadays there are thousands words with "f" in Polish. Some of them are
> surely borrowings (fabryka, Finlandia),

not some, probably all; I mentioned ufać as an exception; there are possibly
others.
> but sometimes I
can't find the
> foreign words being the ancestors of "ofiara", "fruwać" etc.

ofiara is easy; either de. opfer victim < opfern sacrifice < la. operāre, or
cf. nl. offer victim < la. offerre to offer.
fruwać : no idea; onomatopoeic? cf. fly, flutter?
>
> >
> >><ř> is regarded to be quite different from <r>.
> >><r> and <l> in certain positions are treated as vowels, <ř> never is.
> >>I can't think of a common native word with <ř> between consonants.
> >
> >
> > why do you think it necessary to specify "native"; does ř occur at all
in
> > borrowings?

how silly of me; of course words borrowed before the shift of rj (palatal r)
or r before a front vowel (palatalised r) (xi-xii c.?) undergo the change
like native words; e.g. řehoř for *hřehoř < gregorius <gre:górios
> > křest < krьstъ, křtu; křticí, křtící; křtítí, křtitel, Jan K. Vaňhal
(1739 -
> > 1813), in Germ. Johann Baptist Wanhal, in russ. Ян Кржтител (Иоганн
Баптист)
> > Ваньхал.
>
> Do you suggest words like "řeka" are borrowings?
>
> >>>>/r/ is of course not an obstruent but a resonant, but <ř> is

do you mean sonant?
> >>>>phonetically a fricative, and in most cases it's almost
> >>>>indistinguishable from <ž> (z-hacek).
>[...]
> pzdr
> piotrek

--
G. Leo Sahakian
Be kind to animals; they owe you nothing. Let them live in peace,
unless your life is at risk.
http://www.pour-les-animaux.de/.

.

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