Re: Sob, it's true about uvular R
- From: "G. Leo Sahakian" <glsah@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
- Date: Sat, 6 Aug 2005 03:56:21 +0200
"Ruud Harmsen" <realemailseesite13@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> a écrit dans le message de news: 7st1f15hknqvu8a57eub9qn68nilc8k78i@xxxxxxxxxx
Wed, 3 Aug 2005 03:03:07 +0200: "G. Leo Sahakian" <glsah@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: in sci.lang:
I take it you are not a portuguese with both a front and a back r:
The majority of Portuguese speakers (both PT and in BR,, in a different way) is.
but isn't the voiced velar approximant the es. (and pt.?) g in, say, pagar?
You mean for the g? Yes, it is used, but in has nothing to do with r in either language (es and pt).
the majority of sp. tutorials say that g between vowels is a voiced velar fricative, gh (IPA gamma, sampa G); I know what a vvf is, I have got it in my mother tongue; it's not at all like es. -g-; ar. ghain and mod. el. gámma is a vvf; it is similar to, but not identical with, fricative back (postvelar) r; nevertheless confusion is possible: fr. razzia (foray, raid), formerly gazia < north afr. ar. ghâziya < class. ar. ghazwa; germans with fric. g and back r confuse waren and wagen, rtl in the spoof sports news displays a board with the word SPOCHT, the fr. trying to reproduce [x] usually fall back on fr. r; foreigners with gh in their language (el., ar., hy., etc.) usually resort to it for fr. r, at least until they get the hang of the latter.
what is this unhealthy fascination with that unpleasant sound (back r's), which probably originated as a speech defect and then was aped by snobs to end up as very fashionable.
It's only unpleasant if used to often: in da, de, fr and nl I don't like it (although a native speaker of nl I don't use it myself; many others do), but in pt I do like it, because there is also the other r, and the uvular isn't too frequent..
that comes in several varieties: rolled, flapped, voiced, voiceless, from velar to uvular, if I am not mistaken.
we are also told that sp. has 2 r's, r (flapped or single) and rr (rolled or double), the latter spelt r word-initially and after l, n and s; but the only place where the distinction matters is between vowels in the same word; in other positions you can roll it more or less with no risk of confusion; the same applies to pt., except that you can roll r (single) everywhere, even between vowels, since rr is distinctly different (back r).
I'd like to come back to a previous post by you:
"Ruud Harmsen" <realemailseesite13@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> a écrit dans le message de news: 2kfac1hojp19gvh4pbv0slsdg5c43u20ro@xxxxxxxxxx
Thu, 30 Jun 2005 23:37:36 +0200: "G. Leo Sahakian" <glsah@xxxxxxx>: in sci.lang:
[...]how do you utter gré:gora (g is fricative, e: is i), meaning quickly, in mod. grk with uvular r (and other instances of gr or rg in this and other languages)?
Many of my fellow Dutch speakers, who have a uvular r (I haven't) and distinguish g from ch (I do, usually) can do this. I don't know how they manage, but they do. Accents like this (there are many, very different ones, that share just this feature) are quite common, perhaps as many as 30 to 60% of the population in the Netherlands and Belgium. Word pairs like goot/groot, geen/green, gaan/graan and many others are never confused in Dutch, no matter what accent is used.
I think I know how they do it: g and back r are assimilated one way (g to r) or the other (r to g) resulting in a long fricative, voiced or voiceless, velar or postvelar, rolled?; even if nl. has no long consonants oterwise; or has it, say at word boundaries or in composition? (he[t d]ierenziekenhuis, o[pp]asser); even word-initially you can have a long fricative consonant; ru. has it: ss- : preposition or prefix s + word beginning with s- : sadít' v. seat, set, place, ssadít' take down from a seat, help to alight; it even has long voiceless (!) stops: k komú, to whom, formerly pronounced xkamú, which made more sense; I dont know if you can hear a difference between k- and k k-; with k gólovu, to the head, read ggó..., at least you can hear the voiced hold between the closure and the release of the obstruction.
--
G. Leo Sahakian
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