Re: Sob, it's true about uvular R

Sat, 6 Aug 2005 03:56:21 +0200: "G. Leo Sahakian"
<glsah@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: in sci.lang:

>the majority of sp. tutorials say that g between vowels is a voiced velar
>fricative, gh (IPA gamma, sampa G);

Yes. But if it's the same as the Portuguese one, that doesn't quite
describe it. Perhaps it's more like a plosive with an imperfect
closure, and so a weak and sloppy explosion? Cf. the two samples of
the Portuguese word "afago", same song, same singer, in
http://rudhar.com/foneport/en/foneport.htm
http://rudhar.com/foneport/en/not2port.htm#Note19

>I know what a vvf is, I have got it in
>my mother tongue; it's not at all like es. -g-; ar. ghain and mod. el. gámma
>is a vvf;

But the Arabic one is much backer than even the backest Greek type
(i.e. not before /e/ of /i/).

>it is similar to, but not identical with, fricative back
>(postvelar) r; nevertheless confusion is possible: fr. razzia (foray, raid),
>formerly gazia < north afr. ar. ghâziya < class. ar. ghazwa;

Isn't that word from Italian? But that doesn't invalidate what you
say.

Portuguese news announcers routinely insert their rr (or initial r)
for the Spanish j/g before e or i. So the Spanish name Gil becomes Ril
in their speech. It isn't a perfect match, but it is quite close.

>germans with fric. g and back r confuse waren and wagen,

Dutch a (usually voiced) G in the word 'wagen' (in two senses) too,
and many use a uvular r in many positions, and the word "waren" exists
in Dutch (in two senses). Yet, there is never any confusion.
Such speakers also have problems whatsoever with initial gr-. I don't
know how they manage, but they do.

>rtl in the spoof sports news
>displays a board with the word SPOCHT, the fr. trying to reproduce [x]
>usually fall back on fr. r; foreigners with gh in their language (el., ar.,
>hy., etc.) usually resort to it for fr. r, at least until they get the hang
>of the latter.

On a different, but slightly related note: I heard a message on German
radio about a "Hafenfestival". But I couldn't quite figure out what
harbours and ports had to do with the music I heard. I was also amazed
that the speaker sometimes said "Hafen", and sometimes "Hafe". A
sloppiness quite common in my native language Dutch, but I wouldn't
expect it in German at all.

Turned out it was really a "Harfenfestival", in which people played
"die Harfe", hence the missing -n. Silly me.

--
Ruud Harmsen - http://rudhar.com

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