Re: Is there an optimal sequence for language acquisition?


Lee Sau Dan wrote:
> >>>>> "leuwarden" == leuwarden <leuwarden@xxxxxxxxx> writes:
>
> leuwarden> I know. I hope you know that it is impossible. People
> leuwarden> who live in bilingual places end up speaking a
> leuwarden> bilingual dialect, but not two languages, unless they
> leuwarden> start learning from books or newspapers.
>
> And how come this "dialect" has not creolized?

I do not know the meaning of "creolized".
>
>
> leuwarden> I think that linguists call a multilingual dialect a
> leuwarden> "contact language"
>
> Is that a pidgin or a creole?

I do not know these terms well enough
>
>
> leuwarden> The country is, and to get a government job you have to
> leuwarden> pass a little test in two or three languages. The
> leuwarden> German Swiss learn English rather easily, but how many
> leuwarden> really do that? Maybe 20%? Probably fewer.
>
> But I remember stories from Chinese students who were shocked that
> when they passed the Swiss immigration counter in Basel Bad. train
> station, the officer talked to them in Mandarin upon seeing their
> Chinese passport.

Yes, to get special assignments you need to study special languages.
Swiss schools are famous all over, and the (German) Swiss are good
students and very good teachers. For instance, the Russian oligarchy
and the Spanish aristocracy often send their kids to Switzerland for
pre-university schooling.
>
>
> leuwarden> I grew up in a town where both Swiss German and French
> leuwarden> were spoken.
> >> Somewhere near Biel/Bienne?
>
> leuwarden> Yes, just above it, in Magglingen = Macolin, but I went
> leuwarden> to school in Biel=Bienne. Your memory is very
> leuwarden> good. How would you remember such a minor place?
>
> I once travelled by train

!!!!!!!!!!!!!

that is how the other half lives! and learns!

Traveling just tired me out. I would not learn a thing that way.

>from Freiburg (DE) to Lyon (FR), and a part
> of the journey was in Switzerland, from Basel to Genève. It's
> interesting that the train passes between German- to French- speaking
> areas a few times on this track.

indeed! and did you notice that?

> And Biel/Bienne was remarkable
> because it's a relatively bigger interchange station, where the train
> stopped longer. It's also remarkable because it's bilingual.

Completely bilingual.

> (The
> other stations only have signs of the station name in the local
> language. Also, a few minute before entering a station, the train
> broadcast will announce what the next stations is -- but only in the
> local language. Genève is the only exception: the broadcast the
> message in 3 languages: French, English, German.

I passed through there quite a few times but do not remember anything
about it.

> [ The broadcast has
> the additional message tht the train further goes to the airport, and
> advises passengers heading to the airport to stay on board. ] Yet, I
> couldn't even see "Genf" signs shown in the Genève station.)

The Swiss Germans try to learn French. They consider it a duty and
necessary. The French Swiss rather hate having to learn German.
>
>
> leuwarden> I saw your web page and so now I know that you are not
> leuwarden> one of those grrrrrrrrrrr language teachers.
>
> I've never taught a language.

Yes, I saw you are doing computer sciences. How can you combine that
with all those languages?
>
>
> leuwarden> I do not think it is possible to have a majority of
> leuwarden> people learn more than one language well.
> >> In southern China, a large amount of people receive education
> >> in Putonghua in schools, but speak the local "dialects"
> >> exclusively outside school. These local dialects are mutually
> >> unintelligible with Putonghua.
>
> leuwarden> Of course, everybody has to do two or three languages
> leuwarden> at school, and there is an endless press debate going
> leuwarden> on about whether kids should start out learning English
> leuwarden> rather than German.
>
> But those in China can really speak both Putonghua (not necessarily
> very fluently) and the local language (natively).

In (German) Switzerland it is thought that nobody is learning English
well enough. I also think so. My own impression is that the (German)
Swiss, just like myself, speak various languages, but none really well.
(I write well enough, but do not feel comfortable speaking )

There is a famous and extremely successful English teacher in Madrid
who runs programs for company English courses.
He thinks that to learn English really well represents learning time
worth ? 60 000,--
>
>
>
> leuwarden> In English that is easy. Even great texts can be
> leuwarden> read. Look for translations; texts translated from
> leuwarden> other languages are often easier to read than
> leuwarden> originals, because translators often simplify the
> leuwarden> language. And of course technology and science, where
> leuwarden> your knowledge helps you guess.
>
> That's why I'd find a technology/science article in Japanese and
> French much easier to decipher.

Yes. But people in general would never believe that. everybody has this
mess in their minds that scientific and rational language is
necessarily more difficult than the babble at the kitchen table.

Do you like poetry? There is famous Faust. Not the introduction, but
the beginning of the drama is easy and great, and I think most of
Faust I is easy and very very very great!


""" Habe nun, ach! Philosophie,
Juristerei und Medizin,
Und leider auch Theologie
5 Durchaus studiert, mit heißem Bemühn.
Da steh ich nun, ich armer Tor!
Und bin so klug als wie zuvor;
Heiße Magister, heiße Doktor gar
Und ziehe schon an die zehen Jahr
10 Herauf, herab und quer und krumm
Meine Schüler an der Nase herum-
Und sehe, daß wir nichts wissen können!"""

etc

it is not difficult, is it?



>
>
> leuwarden> I have met doctors here who can't speak a word in
> leuwarden> English and yet read all their medical information in
> leuwarden> that language.
>
> Just like what people did with Latin.

yes.
>
> Well... aren't most medical jargons in English actually Latin? So, it
> doesn't help to know English.

the scholars have to attend lots of congresses to read their papers to
an audience. Reading this way is considered a publication. (I know this
only from hear say)

> Maybe, an Italian doctor would find it
> easier to write a medical prescription in "English" than an English
> speaker!

That could be. But remember the Latins do not learn well.
>
>
>
> --
> Lee Sau Dan
>
> E-mail: danlee@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
> Home page: http://www.informatik.uni-freiburg.de/~danlee

.

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