Re: prestige dialects Re: Why is Hindi perceived as being more refined than Punjabi?

Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
>
> Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
> > >
> > > Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > Brablo wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Brilliant answer! Thanks for your time and dedication to enlightening
> > > > > us all!
> > > > >
> > > > > An analogy would be why Southern Dialect English (spoken in Alabama,
> > > > > for example) is perceived as being less refined than Washington DC
> > > > > English.
> > > >
> > > > What do you mean by "Washington DC English"?
> > > > --
> > > > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@xxxxxxx
> > >
> > > I would guess that it was an attempt to indicate a prestige AmE
> > > dialect. In many countries, the dialect of educated speakers from the
> > > capital is, or is close to, the most prestigious dialect. The writer
> > > may have supposed that this applies to the US. Can you suggest a
> > > convenient short label for the most prestigious AmE dialect(s)?
> >
> > "General American." I.e., "accentless" American. Americans recognize
> > varieties as regional, not social.
>
> I didn't realise that "General American" was regarded as a prestige
> dialect. Over here, "General English / British" would be an unlikely
> name for a prestige dialect. "General" and "prestige" are more likely
> to be antonyms than synonyms. Consider cars, are "general" cars and
> "prestige" cars the same?

Sorry, what's a "general car"? A Lexus would, I suppose, be a
prestigious car -- because it's expensive.

> Is there really no dialect snobbery in the US?

What do you mean by "snobbery"? People aren't "proud" of their accents,
except as they're a badge of regional solidarity (such as the Down
Easter of Maine, the South Philly heard in *Rocky*, or the plethora of
accents found in New York City or Chicago).

"Speech therapists" don't claim to be teaching their victims any
particular accent; they claim to be "getting rid of" their victims'
accents.

About 10 years ago, Walt Wolfram (preeminent dialectologist and
sociolinguist) showed a documentary he'd been involved with at an
LSA/ADS meeting. The narrator was Polly Holliday (who had achieved
considerable prominence playing Flo, a TV waitress character derived
ultimately from the movie *Alice Doesn't Live Here Any More), who has a
natural Ozarks sort of accent; but throughout the film you can hear her
trying to suppress it. Wolfram said they kept asking her to talk
naturally, but she either couldn't or wouldn't do it in the context of
narrating a film on dialect diversity.

Which reminds me of something St. Louisans say: "Far enough south to be
cultured, far enough north not to be hick."

> > The variety heard in the speech of such as Katharine Hepburn, William F.
> > Buckley, Jr., Nelson Rockefeller, George Plimpton, Jacqueline Kennedy
> > Onassis, and (until recently; she may have been working at suppressing
> > it since she has started making public appearances) Caroline Kennedy
> > Schlossberg is the dialect of arguably the "most prestigious" Americans,
> > i.e. the wealthiest old-money families, but it's definitely not a
> > prestigious dialect; it's apt to be either unrecognized or mocked.
> >
> > > We have had a similar discussion on BrE before. Many use RP but some,
> > > such as you, reserve this for a very small and rather artificial
> > > dialect. "The Queen's English" used to be a popular term but seems to
> > > have fallen out of favour. "BBC English" is a moderately good term but
> > > not as clear as it used to be since there is much more dialect
> > > variation among BBC presenters than there used to be.
> > >
> > > Note, there is no intended suggestion that "prestige dialect" is a
> > > linguistic concept.
> >
> > It certainly is one!
>
> Do you mean that linguists specify what are and aren't prestige
> dialects? That would surprise me.

It's part of observing language use!

> Or do you just mean that since, for non-linguistic reasons, some
> dialects are considered more prestigious than others, linguists study
> the phenomenon? That I would expect.

There is, obviously, nothing inherently prestigious about any particular
feature of any particular dialect. If I'm to believe Dorothy Sayers, in
the early part of the last century, upper-class English had a number of
features that are also associated with lower-class English --
h-dropping, IIRC, and [N] > [n] in <-ing>, for instance.
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@xxxxxxx
.

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