Re: prestige dialects Re: Why is Hindi perceived as being more refined than Punjabi?

Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
> >
> > Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > Seán O'Leathlóbhair wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Peter T. Daniels wrote:
> > > > > Brablo wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Brilliant answer! Thanks for your time and dedication to enlightening
> > > > > > us all!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > An analogy would be why Southern Dialect English (spoken in Alabama,
> > > > > > for example) is perceived as being less refined than Washington DC
> > > > > > English.
> > > > >
> > > > > What do you mean by "Washington DC English"?
> > > > > --
> > > > > Peter T. Daniels grammatim@xxxxxxx
> > > >
> > > > I would guess that it was an attempt to indicate a prestige AmE
> > > > dialect. In many countries, the dialect of educated speakers from the
> > > > capital is, or is close to, the most prestigious dialect. The writer
> > > > may have supposed that this applies to the US. Can you suggest a
> > > > convenient short label for the most prestigious AmE dialect(s)?
> > >
> > > "General American." I.e., "accentless" American. Americans recognize
> > > varieties as regional, not social.
> >
> > I didn't realise that "General American" was regarded as a prestige
> > dialect. Over here, "General English / British" would be an unlikely
> > name for a prestige dialect. "General" and "prestige" are more likely
> > to be antonyms than synonyms. Consider cars, are "general" cars and
> > "prestige" cars the same?
>
> Sorry, what's a "general car"? A Lexus would, I suppose, be a
> prestigious car -- because it's expensive.

I only meant general in its common meaning, as far as I know, "general
car" is not an idiom. I meant one that does not stand out. Over here
BMWs used to be prestige cars but I heard recently than the BMW 3
series now outsell Ford Mondeos so that may be about to change.

> > Is there really no dialect snobbery in the US?
>
> What do you mean by "snobbery"? People aren't "proud" of their accents,
> except as they're a badge of regional solidarity (such as the Down
> Easter of Maine, the South Philly heard in *Rocky*, or the plethora of
> accents found in New York City or Chicago).

Neeraj's response is closer to my experience.

> "Speech therapists" don't claim to be teaching their victims any
> particular accent; they claim to be "getting rid of" their victims'
> accents.

So what does a person with no accent sound like? If your "no accent"
American comes here then he suddenly will have an accent. Around
London, I have no accent but if I travel north then suddenly I do. I
acquire an accent somewhere before reaching Birmingham.

> About 10 years ago, Walt Wolfram (preeminent dialectologist and
> sociolinguist) showed a documentary he'd been involved with at an
> LSA/ADS meeting. The narrator was Polly Holliday (who had achieved
> considerable prominence playing Flo, a TV waitress character derived
> ultimately from the movie *Alice Doesn't Live Here Any More), who has a
> natural Ozarks sort of accent; but throughout the film you can hear her
> trying to suppress it. Wolfram said they kept asking her to talk
> naturally, but she either couldn't or wouldn't do it in the context of
> narrating a film on dialect diversity.
>
> Which reminds me of something St. Louisans say: "Far enough south to be
> cultured, far enough north not to be hick."
>
> > > The variety heard in the speech of such as Katharine Hepburn, William F.
> > > Buckley, Jr., Nelson Rockefeller, George Plimpton, Jacqueline Kennedy
> > > Onassis, and (until recently; she may have been working at suppressing
> > > it since she has started making public appearances) Caroline Kennedy
> > > Schlossberg is the dialect of arguably the "most prestigious" Americans,
> > > i.e. the wealthiest old-money families, but it's definitely not a
> > > prestigious dialect; it's apt to be either unrecognized or mocked.
> > >
> > > > We have had a similar discussion on BrE before. Many use RP but some,
> > > > such as you, reserve this for a very small and rather artificial
> > > > dialect. "The Queen's English" used to be a popular term but seems to
> > > > have fallen out of favour. "BBC English" is a moderately good term but
> > > > not as clear as it used to be since there is much more dialect
> > > > variation among BBC presenters than there used to be.
> > > >
> > > > Note, there is no intended suggestion that "prestige dialect" is a
> > > > linguistic concept.
> > >
> > > It certainly is one!
> >
> > Do you mean that linguists specify what are and aren't prestige
> > dialects? That would surprise me.
>
> It's part of observing language use!

Which is what I meant by my following paragraph.

> > Or do you just mean that since, for non-linguistic reasons, some
> > dialects are considered more prestigious than others, linguists study
> > the phenomenon? That I would expect.
>
> There is, obviously, nothing inherently prestigious about any particular
> feature of any particular dialect. If I'm to believe Dorothy Sayers, in
> the early part of the last century, upper-class English had a number of
> features that are also associated with lower-class English --
> h-dropping, IIRC, and [N] > [n] in <-ing>, for instance.

Which is an answer to the question in my previous paragraph. Languages
change, I expect that you know that.

> --
> Peter T. Daniels grammatim@xxxxxxx

--
Seán O'Leathlóbhair

.

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