Re: Latin pronunciation puzzle


"Franz Gnaedinger" <frgn@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote...

> [...] Now for the way you
> would pronounce the name attenboroughi: {tsaglossus aetenboroui].
> The -oui contains an inevitable w, the w I transformed into ph, softer
> than f.

I know of no European language (certainly not English or classical Latin)
where <ph> is pronounced "softer" than <f>. In English, both are always
pronounced exactly the same -- as a voiceless labio-dental fricative. In
classical Latin, many speakers no doubt pronounced <ph> as [ph], voiceless
bilabial stop [p] followed by [h], in imitation of the Greek pronunciation
of the letter phi, aspirated unvoiced bilabial stop.

I'd be very interested to learn just what you understand phonetically by
the word "softer" in your phrase "ph, softer than f"?

> [...] Now French
> langue, when spoken, is lang with a nasal a, the u of lingua is
> omitted, also in langage. But when the English adopted the word,
> the original u returned: language laenguidsh.

My understanding is that "the original u" was still pronounced in the Old
French "langue" when it was borrowed into English, and that this is the
reason English has it in "language". It was never necessary to "return"
it -- an extremely unlikely development of a sort which hardly ever happens.

French "langage", of course, corresponds to popular Latin "*linguaticum". I
haven't been able to find out at what stage the "u" in this particular word
was elided in France -- in particular whether it was before or after the
Norman Conquest -- that is, whether or not "language" (with "u") was
borrowed as such into English, or whether "-age" was added to "langue" more
or less independently in French and English.

John.


.

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