Re: Your first "linguistic" memory

Ekkehard Dengler wrote:
>
> Peter T. Daniels schrieb:
> > Ruud Harmsen wrote:
> > >
> > > Fri, 13 Jan 2006 16:07:16 GMT: "Peter T. Daniels"
> > > <grammatim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: in sci.lang:
> > >
> > > >> Fri, 13 Jan 2006 15:29:24 GMT: "Peter T. Daniels"
> > > >> <grammatim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>: in sci.lang:
>
> > > >> Phonemes are what make words sound different,
> > > >
> > > >Yes.
> > > >
> > > >> and makes different
> > > >> meanings recognizable.
> > > >
> > > >I don't know what that means.
> > >
> > > If I say "veil", then "fail", the listener knows they're different
> > > words, because the difference between [f] and [v] is phonemic, and /f/
> > > and /v/ are phonemes. So the phonemic difference between the phones
> > > distinguishes the different meanings.
> >
> > That doesn't "make different meanings recognizable." It distinguishes
> > words.
>
> Ruud's definition was neither unintelligible nor unusual. A phoneme is often
> defined as the smallest unit of sound that can bring about a change in
> meaning. This isn't fundamentally different from saying that a phoneme
> distinguishes words.

Exactly. It added nothing to the discussion; it was otiose; it was
redundant; and the difference between "a meaning" and "a morpheme" is
profoud in _other_ parts of linguistics.

> Meaning is important. The only way to tell whether a word would still be the
> same if you replaced one sound with another is to ask yourself whether the
> word would still mean the same.
>
> The fact that words often have more than one meaning doesn't really
> invalidate this approach. All it shows is that the substitution of phonemes
> isn't a necessary condition for a change in meaning. It is a sufficient one,
> though.

No. Economics/economics. Garage/garridge. Etc., etc., etc.
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@xxxxxxx
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Your first "linguistic" memory
    ... >>> These two statements seem contradictory to me. ... the meaning of the word does not change.> ... taken to include lexically restricted variation. ... phoneme seems difficult to reconcile with the whole concept of phonemes. ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: Your first "linguistic" memory
    ... any speaker with no difference in meaning. ... two different pronunciations of the same word, ... there is no free variation. ... > phoneme seems difficult to reconcile with the whole concept of phonemes. ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: Your first "linguistic" memory
    ... This isn't fundamentally different from saying that a phoneme ... (I had to look up <otiose>, thank for letting me learn a new word). ... >> Meaning is important. ... >> same if you replaced one sound with another is to ask yourself whether the ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: Your first "linguistic" memory
    ... >> Ekkehard Dengler wrote: ... This isn't fundamentally different from saying that a phoneme ... >>> The fact that words often have more than one meaning doesn't really ... >>> isn't a necessary condition for a change in meaning. ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: Transcribing rhotics for ESL
    ... Changing a phoneme changes meaning. ... > Aspiration has no effect on comprehension. ... Look at your IPA chart (evidently your French students are more familiar ...
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