Re: Teaching a child three languages


Lee Sau Dan wrote:
"Seán" == Seán O'Leathlóbhair <jwlawler@xxxxxxxxx> writes:

Seán> The Filipinos are unlikely to encourage you. They will
Seán> probably laugh if you try.

This situation is very similar to Cantonese speakers in HK. They'll
tell the foreigners that Cantonese is so difficult and so useless to
spend time on or to learn seriously. (But they aren't aware that
Cantonese has got more speakers worldwide than, perhaps, Dutch. "Just
a few million speakers" is what they have in mind. They don't know
there are "languages" (not "dialects") with less than a million
speakers. And they don't know that Cantonese has got tens of millions
of speakers.)

Maybe being near to the huge Mandarin speaking population makes them
feel small.

Seán> Because they are so unused to hearing Tagalog spoken by
Seán> foreigners, they may not even realise that you are trying to
Seán> speak it.

Well... I have similar experience with German in Germany. In the more
touristic cities like Munich, Frankfurt am Main, Hamburg, Cologne,
even when I start a conversation in German and keep on using German,
the responder can be responding all my questions in English.
Obviously, my outlook has more influence than my tongue on the
language the use to respond to me.

My appearance has a similar effect in Asia. The severity of the
problem varies with Philippines at the severe end.

Many HKers do similar things. Even when a blond asks the way in
pretty good Cantonese, they would respond in English, assuming that
English is the only language that blond person can understand.
(Actually, such HKers are usually nervous when facing a foreigner. So
nervous to realize that they're being asked in Cantonese. These
people are usually those who cannot learn English well enough -- to
nervous to try and use a foreign language.)

The nervousness applies to the Philippines as well. It is another
factor that encourages understanding but not speaking Tagalog. Some
Filipinos can speak English but are too shy to speak it to a foreigner.
If you can understand but not speak Tagalog you can have a
conversation in which you both speak your native language.

I have heard stories about Japan: Even when a European speaks fluent
Japanese with little accent, when coming in face to face with a
Japanese stranger, the Japanese would 'pretend' not to understand the
Japanese that this European speaks. That's because the Japanese is
already frightened by being asked by a foreigner. He's so nervous
that he isn't aware that this European speaks almost perfect Japanese
to him. All he has in mind is: "Oh! This is a European. I have to
speak English to him. But my English is so terrible. I cannot
express myself in English. :( ".

Here is my favourite foreigner in Japan story. An ex-colleague speaks
Japanese very well. One time he was trying to check into a Ryokan in a
small town. The manager seemed reluctant to accept him and gave
various reasons why my colleague would not be happy. "We only serve
Japanese food" - "I like Japanese food". "We only have traditional
Japanese beds" - "I know and like them". Finally: "We only speak
Japanese, you would not be able to understand us" - "We have just had
this entire conversation in Japanese". He finally gave up, went to a
larger town, and stayed in a western style hotel.

Seán> A similar problem can occur in Europe. I have seen
Seán> discussions here making similar points about Dutch.

And German. :)

But rather more people learn German than Dutch. Some English children
even learn it in school. My niece speaks it quite well.

Of course, in those places with fewer tourists, the residents usually
do not speak English that well. The situation there is reversed: even
when a tourist asks in English, they respond in German. :)

In China, people sometimes respond with written notes. Sadly, they are
even less likely to be useful to me than speech.

Seán> There is some use in learning to understand Tagalog so you
Seán> can eavesdrop.

I always think this is a very useful skill. e.g. in markets, I can
know how they bargain to get a good deal. I can know the prices they
agree on. Pretty useful and interesting information, even if you're
not buying! You can also encounter locals asking smart questions, and
get a lot of useful hints from the answers. That's a kind of
travelling experience that you cannot buy.

Seán> As a result there are some foreigners who understand it
Seán> fairly well but rarely speak it.

If that is the case, and the locals are aware of that, the locals may
resort to other ways to conceal the information.

"Some" is not "many". The some is sufficiently small that few locals
suspect that a foreigner might understand them. Here, in our social
circle, the Filipinos do know that they need to be careful what they
say around me. Provided that they remember, they can keep their
secrets. As typically spoken, Tagalog contains a huge amount of
English vocabulary. If they avoid this and use more bookish words, I
am much less likely to understand. Sometimes they can switch to
another language e.g. Ilocano.

Seán> Conversely with Thai: Although not essential, it is
Seán> certainly useful. The Thais are likely to encourage you.
Seán> Many Thais have heard foreigners trying to speak Thai, it is
Seán> not so surprising to them.

Then, Thai would be much easier to learn.

It is which makes it a useful argument against those who think that
simplifying a language will make it much easier to learn. "If only
French did not have so many irregular verbs it would be much easier."

--
Seán O'Leathlóbhair

.

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