Re: Question about Spanish

John Atkinson wrote:

"Peter T. Daniels" <grammatim@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote...

phoglund@xxxxxx wrote:

Peter T. Daniels wrote:

No, that's creolization, not pidginization.

Oh yes, but it begins with pidginization.

No, it doesn't. P and C are similar processes, but C doesn't depend on
P.

Interesting. Could you mention some examples of creolisation without
pidginisation, without stretching the concept of creolisation too much?
(As it happens, I could think of a couple of potential examples, but
I'd like to hear your idea first.)

A pidgin is a trade language arrived at by adults trying to learn as
little as possible of each other's language. It lacks most of the bells
and whistles of full languages.

A creole is what a child invents when its parents have no common
language -- and is a full language with all the bells and whistles. (And
after it's invented by a first generation, it continues as a full
language.)

Hmm. Tok Pisin isn't a trade language (and never was, I believe). Nor was
it invented by a child -- even today it's a second language for the vast
majority of its speakers.

Neither Tok Pisin nor Hawaiian Pidgin English is a pidgin. They're
creoles.

IMO, however, it is "a full language with all the bells and whistles" -- or
pretty close thereto.

My point is, Peter's definitions are too restrictive to be applicable in
practice. Unless, of course, one thinks of them as ideals, with no exact
real-world exemplars.

Or, unless one is using technical terms in linguistics.
--
Peter T. Daniels grammatim@xxxxxxx
.

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