Re: Some European river names


Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
Holly wrote:

Greetings,
I hope this is not too far off the topic but I am interested in
understanding the process of language acquisition (development) from
monosyllabic representative sounds, such as onomatopoeia <e.g.
ruff-ruff and moo> to the use of grammatical decisions of word order.
I have read that in the Aurignacian culture language was "artificial"
-- perhaps not as sophisticated as ours but on its way. This means
35,000 years ago the advancement of language was as good as the
advancement of artistic know-how .... which was no less advanced then
Picasso (according to his own assessment). Is there a theory that make
sense, that explains the way in which artificial language evolves and
the time it takes from simple grunts of need to words that express
conceptual principles?

If you are interested in these questions, read my messages,
but don't reply to me, or else you will immediately get killrated.
If you have a question I didn't answer in my etymological thread
you may ask me via e-mail (works, no spam trap).

Also .. please forgive my lack of knowledge... but did rhinos really
live in Southwest France 35,000 years ago or did the artists of Chauvet
Cave remember them from their nomadic travels?

Yes, they did. Mammoths died out in the Magdalenium,
but survived until 10,000 years ago in Switzerland. There
have been Magdalenian tribes who spent winter in the region
of Marseilles, and summer in Switzerland, just for hunting
mammoths I reckon.

There was never a question about mammoths ... but rather whether rhinos
(from 35,000 BP) thrived in cold temperatures. I'm assuming bones have
been found where they stopped to munch on the dandelions in the
Pyrenees?


Is there any evidence that these folks traveled from areas as far as
the great expanse south of the Urals ... perhaps as far as Kazakhstan?

What do you mean by these folks? and of what time are you
speaking? Eurasia isn't just a fancy term, and Dolni Vestonice
(26,000 BC) has been dubbed New York of the Ice Age. There
have certainly been wanderings, but I can't answer your very
general question, it is not specific enough for me.

Sorry for not repeating "Aurignacians_ --- they're the "folks" about
whom I am inquiring. Also, I am aware of the word "Eurasia" but I
wanted to be more specific to the location of my interest.

I am fascinated by the red dots found in the Chauvet cave ... the red
ochre palm prints. Could these be systems for counting? The artists
did not live in the cave and they built fires to produce the charcoal
with which they drew ... they were artisans ... perhaps there was a
practical purpose to the red dots ... or perhaps the lack of oxygen in
the caves caused temporary physiological phenomena that in some way
relates to the red dots. I know from having been, on a few occasions,
lightheaded that dots blurred my vision. I am not negating the
possible use of "magic mushrooms" by these early home sapiens, as some
finds have suggested, but I would like to exhaust the possibilities of
the natural effects of the environment first ... before I look at the
art as wholly shamanistic.

I would greatly appreciate any kindly and pertinent guidance you might
offer.
Holly

There are several explanations for the hand paintings
in many caves. The color has been chewed, then spat
on the wall, mostly. Red ocher stays for blood and life,
also spittle and breath were symbols of life. Jean Clottes
favors the idea of shamanism: shamans got in contact
with the beyond in a trance, for example induced by the
lack of oxygen, as you point out (there is a high level of
carbo-monoxid in the pit of the Lascaux cave), and by

Lascaux dated only ten to eleven thousand years ago, where as Chauvet's
parietal art is being dated around 35,000 BP. I don't believe
"carbo-monoxid" was the issue but rather carbon dioxide ....cave bears
are thought to have died from the lack of oxygen during hybernation.

touching rock they got in contact, for the beyond was
not only above, in the sky, it was also inside rock, in
a well, and deep inside ourselves, as I may add. In my
opinion the hands on the walls have one further aspect,
namely securing a second life in the beyond: by blowing
a hand shape on a cave wall they claimed a place on the
sky for a next life; consider that an Egyptian star had five
rays, corresponding to the five fingers of a hand, and the
cave wall was a sky, for, according to Marie E.P. Koenig
the horse was the sun and the bull was the moon. You
can also find hands of children. And there are hands that
had been scratched out, or crossed out, apparently of
unworthy people who were denied a second life. We know
of visual ostracism from ancient Egypt, where statues had
been mutilated, and hieroglyphic names crossed out.
Furthermore there is a theory which say that the hands
convey messages by the bending of fingers; interesting,
but not very convincing to me, at least for the time being.

I am interested in the possibility that the number five had
significance .... that the palm may represent the number five (five
fingers). Thank you for the link.

As for your thread on etymology ~ I did read the start of it and
although it is interesting to me it does not address language
development .... quite a different ball game from etymological
development. I am slightly familiar with Dawkins "memes" and hold a
theoretical belief similar in some ways but stemming more from classic
philosophy ... that of Socrates' concept of recovery of knowledge (to
be more specific) and if my memory serves me that of Kant's view on
politics -- that a political system (e.g.democracy) cannot be
successfully imposed on a people but rather must come from a common
need of the people. This is currently being played out in Iraq ...
where our unenlightened President, George Bush, is trying to impose our
brand of democracy on the Iraqi people when it doesn't currently meet
their common need to function as a "polis."

Generally speaking, Instinct and the unconscious seem to hold that
quasi vulgar state of the "unproven" and therefore remain unforgiven.
Nevertheless, I am of the mind to believe that both are intregral to
language development. I was hoping that someone would direct me to any
current views that may support of repudiate this stance.

Thanks for your response ... I am not worried about being "killrated"
whatever that may mean ...
Holly

.

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