Re: Some European river names


Holly wrote:
Franz Gnaedinger wrote:
Holly wrote:

There was never a question about mammoths ... but rather whether rhinos
(from 35,000 BP) thrived in cold temperatures. I'm assuming bones have
been found where they stopped to munch on the dandelions in the
Pyrenees?

As I told you, there have been rhinos in southern France.


Yes. Believe it or not I just learned about the Woolly Rhinoceros!
But I am still unable to locate specific information that puts them in
southwestern france at that time. I suppose it is not necessary to
have the rhinos there then. Since there does seem to be a lot of
evidence to support the wanderings of the Aurignacians.

Sorry for not repeating "Aurignacians_ --- they're the "folks" about
whom I am inquiring. Also, I am aware of the word "Eurasia" but I
wanted to be more specific to the location of my interest.

Yes, they have been wandering, and faster than hitherto
assumed, they made 400 kilometers per year, I hust read
a couple of days ago. They went from Anatolia to Spain
already in around 42 000 BP, and they wandered around,
being hunters and gatherers. But not always, and not
taking each and every route.

One painted from Chauvet was reportedly 5'11''. At this height he no
doubt had a good long stride.

Lascaux dated only ten to eleven thousand years ago, where as Chauvet's
parietal art is being dated around 35,000 BP. I don't believe
"carbo-monoxid" was the issue but rather carbon dioxide ....cave bears
are thought to have died from the lack of oxygen during hybernation.

No, Lascaux is older, some 18,000 years old. You are right
about carbo-dioxid, of course. There is an especially high
concentration of it in the Lascaux pit as Jean Clottes recently
told at Zurich in a lecture to a psychological audience. May
have been used for inducing a shamanistic trance, he said,
but we don't really know, he also said.

I wish I had been there.


I am interested in the possibility that the number five had
significance .... that the palm may represent the number five (five
fingers). Thank you for the link.

It certainly had in the Mesolithic, probably also in the
Upper Paleolithic, namely in a frequent figure resembling
the number five on a dice. I interpret it as the PAS ideogram
- me in the center of my world, south were the sun reaches
the highest point on the sky, north where the polar star
sparkles, east where the spring and fall sun raises, west
where it settles.

I like this. The red dots are in specific directions. Thanks.


As for your thread on etymology ~ I did read the start of it and
although it is interesting to me it does not address language
development .... quite a different ball game from etymological
development. I am slightly familiar with Dawkins "memes" and hold a
theoretical belief similar in some ways but stemming more from classic
philosophy ... that of Socrates' concept of recovery of knowledge (to
be more specific) and if my memory serves me that of Kant's view on
politics -- that a political system (e.g.democracy) cannot be
successfully imposed on a people but rather must come from a common
need of the people. This is currently being played out in Iraq ...
where our unenlightened President, George Bush, is trying to impose our
brand of democracy on the Iraqi people when it doesn't currently meet
their common need to function as a "polis."

You have been raising such big questions, impossible to
answer them in just one reply, and questions that have not
yet been answered by linguists, we are here in an open field.
So either you get no answer, or you must consider what
someone like me can tell you. As for democracy: the Iraqi
people, and the large majority of it, certainly thursts for
democracy, they feel that Saddam stole their youth and
most of their life. And they need our help.

Sorry we disagree here. Islam has a form of democratic idea that is
incompatiable with the US constitution.


Generally speaking, Instinct and the unconscious seem to hold that
quasi vulgar state of the "unproven" and therefore remain unforgiven.
Nevertheless, I am of the mind to believe that both are intregral to
language development. I was hoping that someone would direct me to any
current views that may support of repudiate this stance.

I don't understand what you are saying here. I like it simple
and plain. Here you are with my definition of language from
1974/75: Language is the means of getting help, support
and understanding from those we depend upon in one way
or another --- and every means of getting help, support and
understanding may be called language, on whatever level
of life it occurs ... And as language is carried by needs and
wishes, it certainly involves the unconscious.

Yes. Conceptually open to instinct as playing a role in language
development. Yes. That's what I would like to hear.


Have a nice Saturday evening, must hurry for my invitation

Hope your evening was enjoyable. Thanks for your time.
Holly

Franz, I wanted to add this to my response. I thought it was apropos.
http://www.santafe.edu/~johnson/articles.nostratic.html

"IN their archeological digs through the strata of human language,
linguists have long been fascinated by the seeming similarities between
the English words "fist," "finger" and "five." The motif is repeated by
the Dutch, who say "vuist," "vinger" and "vijf," and the Germans, who
say "faust," "finger" and "funf." Traces of the pattern can even be
found as far away as the Slavic languages like Russian.

Conceivably, sometime in the distant past, before these languages split
from the mother tongue, there was a close connection among the words
for a hand and its fingers and the number five. But did the
mathematical abstraction come from the word for fist, or, as some
linguists have proposed, was it the other way around? The answer could
provide a window into the development of the ancient mind.

In a paper now being prepared for publication in a book next year, Dr.
Alexis Manaster Ramer, a linguist at Wayne State University in Detroit,
argues that the mystery may now be solved: fist came before five. But
more important than his conclusion is the method by which it was
derived."

.

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