Re: "par coeur" origin


Paul J Kriha wrote:
TOF <fran_beta@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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Paul J Kriha wrote:
TOF <fran_beta@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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retrosorter wrote:
TOF wrote:
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
retrosorter wrote:


Once we're on the "by heart" subject, why is it that some people say
"off by heart?" Is it merely idiomatic with no logical explanation?

"Now that" we're on the subject

It's not "off by heart," it's "read it off" or "know it off."

Say what?
"I know my lines *by heart*; or *off by heart*"
TOF

The joining of the word "'off" with "by" does seem a tad unusual and I
can't think offhand of another example in English where this occurs.
Does it in essence represent a joining if the idiomatic verb ""know
off' with ''by heart'?

I doubt it. Where I come from (Australia) I've not heard someone split
"off" from "by" (although the "off" is occasionally omitted.)

Oh really?
"By now, you must be able to recite it off, you bloody drongo, by heart."

That's cheating. A parenthetical aside can go most anywhere, though I
stand by my claim. Why not put the "you bloody drongo" at the end or
after "By now,"?

Cheating or not cheating, you said you never heard it split.

And that remains the case, for the data set including all conversations
I can recall, right up until Mr Daniels' rather eccentric suggestion.

If you like the aside at the end of a sentence, consider this:
"By now, you must be able to recite it off, pretty quickly.
(pause) By heart!"

Only if you're in the midst of swallowing a large piece of particularly
lumpy food and are holding up a discouraging hand to someone
considering performing a Heimlich manoeuvre.

One can contrive a sentence and a fragment, but what does that show?

Indeed, why not simply render your proposed sentence as follows:

"By now, you must be able to recite it pretty quickly by heart!"

It's my impression that the simple "by heart" is more commonly used
amongst educated speakers (or those affecting higher education) than is
"off by heart". This latter is more often used, in my view, in informal
Australian English.

I am sure you must have heard "off" and "by" split into
separate sentences?
pjk

Yes, but not "off by heart".

What about this?

"I know it off by heart!"

"*By heart*, you say?"


Another expression meaning the same thing is "down pat" used with "to
have".

The _same_ thing as what? By heart??
pjk

Yes.

There is a semantical overlap but it's not _the same thing_.
I don't think it means "by heart" in the following sentence:
"She's got that Indian wrestlin' down pat, an' she's built for it."
:-)


I'll grant you that. It can mean the same thing, but need not.


TOF

.

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