Re: Long-range structural similarities across the Old World.

Robert Tichacek wrote:
In article <1148403042.654463.94570@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
Darkstar <darkstar100@xxxxxxxx> wrote:

John Atkinson wrote:

[...]

Perhaps (?) it is old in Tai -- almost certainly not so in all other SEA
families. Tone is, after all, one of the more readily acquired (and lost)
features.

Thai or Miao-Yao. But they're dangerously close to Chinese. They may
finally turn out to be related to Sino-Tibetan. Just thinking out
load--

You're confusing areal and typological features with relatedness again.
The only mention I've seen recently of Miao-Yao (and some Tai) being
Sino-Tibetan is in PRC publications, and it isn't hard to figure out
why they want to encourage that notion.

[...]

There are many lexical correspondences in the basic vocabulary. Just
offhand (Chinese--Thai, tones omitted): na--nii (this), mei--mai
(negation), you--yuu (to be in a place), niao--nok (bird), nai--nom
(milk), fu--phoo (father), fu--phua (husband), tui--thaao (leg), etc.

I don't think that's true, in the real world. My impression is that noun
classes and case endings don't correlate one way or the other. Anyway, noun
classes are somewhat rarer in the Americas than elsewhere (see Nichols maps
11 and 12).

Can anyone remind me of any languages that routinely use both a
well-formed case system and a noun class system?

Numerous IE and Dravidian languages, Burushaski, Ket. Although, looking
at an earlier post, this seems to be another example of

Yenisenian and Burushaski -- yes. But I have put them in a separate
box. They are intermediate between Type A and B. Especially, Yenisenian
which is not counted as either type.

Dravidian -- this is another exception or mixed group from the same
area as Burushaski. They both are too far south and were probably
influnced by Type B. At the time Dravidian shares other features with
A, like cases, gender and nominative typology.

In fact, you could also mention some NW Caucasian languages (this is a
very important exception) which doesn't fit into the picture. But I
don't recall any IE.

you misusing
linguistic terminology. In this case, assuming that you are talkng
about numeral or noun classifiers, I give you Dravidian (again), some
IE (again), Nivkh, Yidiny, and Podopa.

I mean noun classes as in Niger-Congo and measure words as in SEA. What
is the right word for them in English?

Nivh was not listed in my classification
IE -- again, which IE?
Yidiny, and Podopa -- Okay, but that's Australia.

[...]

I wouldn't be too sure. My southern Type B seems to be generally SVO.
Most SE Aisia is SVO, for example, Munda seems to have acquired SOV
from Dravidian, and Sino-Tibetan is not fully Type B.

Whether or not Sino-Tibetan is your "Type B" is irrelevant:
Tibeto-Burman is *overwhelmingly* SOV, and throughout most of the world
SOV is the most common default order measured by both total numbers and
by appearance in families.

Polynesian VSO is
definitely a new feature. In Africa, SOV is used mostly in
Nilo-Saharan, Mande and Kordofan, but Niger-Congo are almost entirely
SVO. It means that within Type B only Nilo-Saharan are genetically SOV.
Besides if SOV is so wide-spread, it's a divine coincidence, since most
language groups have not been demonstrated to be related to each other,
and I don't know of any general mechanism for pushing the verb to the
end of phrase.

If SOV is a "divine coincidence" outside the Americas, then you can't
treat it as being significant within the Americas. Similarly, you can't
bring up historical changes in word order and yet assume that languages
in the Americas have kept the same order.

Frankly, this part is very confusing. Who was claiming what? And is it
important to figure this out in connection to the original thesis?

[...]

Sorry. I can't get any books from Amazon at the time. This is where it
gets stuck. It's like sending me on a wild-goose chase. And I'll never
know what she did or whether I'm wrong, if someone here doesn't run a
check on the book or lay serious objections on the line.

You've got shaky data

Maybe I need a detailed article to provide solid data.

you interpret that data based on how well it
fits your hypothesis

If that is your impression.

and you are confused about both the specific
languages in your sample and linguistics in general. And this isn't
new: the various other pet theories you've been posting here suffer
from the same flaws. I think those are serious objections.

In this passage you are trying to attack me and my credibility, while
you should be attacking the theory and its alleged 'shakedness' (of
course, if you want to play an opponent). I think that's called
argumentum ad hominem. Of course, since the matter is very complex and
involves many language groups, it's not for everyone out there. So if
you don't wanna play in my sandbox, go to someone else's, but please
don't throw toys at me.

[...]

.

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