Re: Settling an Argument - Assembly *IS* a Language, Right?

Neeraj Mathur wrote:

<hanumizzle@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1148669034.357929.97540@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Neeraj Mathur wrote:

I had no idea there was ever a vernacular form of Pali, or a vernacular
related to Pali, although the similarities to Sanskrit were immediately
obvious. I was under the impression that it was principally, if not
exclusively, a liturgical language. Oh, well...

For most of its history it was (is) mostly a liturgical language. But its
origin was in an MIA vernacular - it is, in fact, the oldest type of MIA
that we know of, and is besides the oldest language recorded in India
(paradoxically, since the Vedic literature is at least a thousand years
older, but was not recorded until after Asoka).

GG Sanskrit. :)

I will investigate it further...I remember most of it when I was
researching whether or not English is a creole. (It wasn't, and I was
consequently right. :D)

Yes; not sure where this widespread myth that English is a creole comes
from - there are kooks who claim that here periodically too.

As someone who provides technical support for a Unix-like operating
system, I have come to discern kookery from mere misapprehension.

Usually, it's just misapprehension.

Yes, many Indians are easily impressed by people who are interested in
them
and their culture. Are you studying or interested in Indian literature?
What
aspects?

Yes, if not formally, I am studying that literature and yonder
(history, language, etc, etc.). This interest began several years ago,
and one can never completely trace the origins of every major change of
interests in one's life. However, I could certainly attribute this to
my penchant for escapism (the stories and things always reminded me of
D&D), Indian friends, and the sheer practical value of knowing these
things as a prospective Comp Sci major.

Escapism - have you read the Vetala stories?

No, because I prefer the classic RPG genre rather than horror (like
Call of Cthulhu), Compare such vampire-like beings as the Vetalas to
the nagas of other Indic legends. Where do you think D&D nagas came
from?

There are some pretty interesting stories there: remember when Jan took
a baby naga hostage and made his parents build him a vieng, hence
Viengjan?

I also remember reading an extended narrative from the Bengali literary
tradition about Jabali, one of India's first freethinkers.

For instance, I recently toured Penn State University's main campus and
struck up a half-hour long conversation with a Tamil student named
Balaji at the CSE building. An Assamese peer of his (whose name I
forget) stepped out of the elevator at that time, and Balaji drew his
attention to me, saying I knew a lot about Indian languages (I really
don't...yet :D). I don't even go there yet, and I already fit it in
with that clique. Awesome!

Excellent; best of luck with your studies, Chris!

There is such a thing as MTV Desi? What do they play?

Bhangra and such. I don't really watch television much and wouldn't
receive MTV Desi anyway, but I love bhangra and other Indian bad. And
SEA music.

Just look at my playlist:

http://distro.ibiblio.org/pub/linux/distributions/vectorlinux/hanumizzle/vmenu-gtk2.png

Well that's the point. I suppose the best translation for it is 'rustic', in
both the snobbish and the charming aspects of that word. In India, it's a
way for urban or urbanised people to dissociate from those they consider
lowly. Note the phonology - the standard Hindi word is [deS] 'nation,
country', a direct Sanskrit borrowing. The form using [s] instead of [S]
suggests village dialects, in which the Sanskritisation is less obvious -
that means, unlettered, uneducated

So are you saying it would be less offensive if I were to say 'deshi'?

Of course, amongst emigrants, the more charming meanings are common too -
when my grandmother (who's lived outside India since the 70's) speaks of
'desi food', it's with longing. (Because the tomatoes here in Britain have
no taste, you see, the okra is just a bunch of seeds, the chilis have no
zing...)

You should see what passes for 'Firehouse' Chili here in the States.

With emigrants of my generation, the word is a convenient way to say
'Indian' if you don't want to associate with India as a modern political
entity. I don't like the word, but I'll use it occasionally in this sense.
So the Pakistani guy who runs the kebab van at the corner, I ask him to make
me chicken 'desi style' and he gives me something that's actually enjoyable,
rather than the semi-edible crap he gives everybody else. (I've been there a
bit too much - now they've all started to call me Desi Style!) So desi food
is okay; desi music or clothes, maybe - but if anybody ever actually
described me as desi, I'd be somewhat annoyed or offended. And certainly my
cousins in India would be most upset if I talked about their desi tastes in
clothes or music.

I admit I still have difficulty understanding why such a label would
elicit offense, but I'll watch out. (I will be visiting India when I
graduate kolluge...the dilemma is that I want to see the temples of the
South, but I also want to practice Hindi in the North; so I'm not sure
which state yet.)

I would draw the line at being called 'kee nok', but, to be honest with
you, I'm not exactly afraid of that happening. Virtually all the people
I met from that part of the world think I am a lord.

I have no more problems with using the term than I would with someone
calling me a videsi, farang(i), parang, or the whole litany of other
words derived from 'Frank'. In the right context, these words can
assume a very favorable, even prestigious association, depending on how
much work one does.

Fortunately, good intentions usually count for something.

Absolutely.

I remember referring to my self as a 'goree' on #ruby-lang. A good
friend of mine (the Telugu man I mentioned earlier) said that I meant
'goraa', and added that 'goree' means girl. Another Telugu corrected
him, indicating that I meant 'white man'.

We all had a good laugh.

Alright, I guess what I was missing was -izzle as a suffix. Wikipedia has
set me straight.

Wikipedia is a lord.

By the way, if you still use that signature in your forums (which in the
thread you linked to you claimed as Hindi - it's not, it's Sanskrit, but
you
probably knew that),

Where did I claim it was Hindi? That I would make such a claim puzzles
me, because all the slokas I know, including that one, are Sanskrit.

You said something like 'because I have a Hindi sig, people think I'm desi'
at one point in that thread.

Oh, I see where the confusion comes from; here's what happened: the
forum I'm on automatically updates your signature *retroactively*. I
used to have the song lyric 'dil kya kare, jab kisi se' (something
about 'what can the heart do?' IIRC) in Hindi.

I'm just beginning to study Hindi, but I don't remember seeing anything
about 'guru' turning to 'gurave' in the dative case. (meaning: "To this
honorable teacher, great praise", yes?)

Hindi doesn't have a dative case, of course.

Yes, I just checked that out. A term like 'mujhe ko' assumes dative
status only through postposition, na?

Well whether you make the conjuncts or not, you should add the virama stroke
to the end of 'sakshat'.

Here's the revised sloka, if I understood your advice correctly:

http://img346.imageshack.us/img346/5181/tex72797be.gif

P.S. - Neeraj means lotus, yes? The wife of a good friend of mine is
named Neeraj, and I think that's what he mentioned to me.

Where was she from?

Andhra Pradesh.

Hindi keeps the Sanskrit feminine, which is 'Neerja',
with a long a on the end.

The word is a Sanskrit compound. 'ni:ra' means 'water'...

<snip discussion of Sanskrit grammar and Hindu mythology>

Of course, it's a
somewhat poetic/metaphoric name for the lotus, which is most often called
'padma:'.

Dhanyavad!

I will not be able to digest such an inundation of new information
immediately, but as you mentioned the Trimurti, or at least two of
three facets, I thought of a very nice picture I found earlier:
http://atributetohinduism.com/images/trimurti_three_aspects.jpg.

Just throwing it out there as a token of appreciation.

.

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