Re: Etymology of "Ketzer"

On Sat, 3 Jun 2006 00:48:02 +0100, Neeraj Mathur
<neemathur@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in
<news:e5qing$5qo$1@xxxxxxxxxxxxx> in sci.lang:

"Heidi Graw" <heidigraw@xxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:ZK3gg.224973$WI1.34863@xxxxxxxxxxx

"Pierre Jelenc" <rcpj@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
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Heidi Graw <heidigraw@xxxxxxx> writes:

I'm curious about the etymology of the German word
"Ketzer" which means "heretic" in English.

Pierre wrote:
Said to be from the Greek "katharos" (pure, unblemished)
which was applied during the middle-ages to various
neo-manichean religious sects (Cathars, Albigeois).
However Hellquist's Swedish Etymological Dictionary
points rather to a Middle-Low-German "quetsen" (to
defile, pollute, desecrate) that is akin to German
"quetschen" (to crush).

Thanks, Pierre.

I had come across information that claims "Ketzer" was a
German word play on "Cathars"... Kat-ars...kitty butts.
Word play is simply that...word play designed to insult
the Cathars. Word play is not scientific etymology.
Apparently, tales were told that heretics (witches)
kissed kitty butts and that the word "Ketzer" is in
reference to a cat worshipping cult.

Well this is obviously wrong - the idea that a word play
based on the Modern English plural of 'Cathar' to the
Modern English words 'cat' and 'arse' could yield a
German word like 'Ketzer' is clearly ridiculous, as you
rightly say.

It's equally a MHG word-play, on <katze> 'cat' and <ars>
'arse', though the normal compound would be <katzenars>.
And as I just posted, the association of <ketzer> 'Cathar;
heretic' with kissing a cat's arse is explicitly found in
the 12th century.

Going from quetschen to Ketzen appears more reliable and
realistic. If anyone else has more information to add
about this word, I'd love to hear about it.

This I find less plausible than you do. There is no reason
why 'quetschen' should give 'Ketzer' at all - the sound
changes are highly unlikely, and you certainly wouldn't
get both reflexes. It could only work if there was a
double borrowing - if another language borrowed
'quetschen' or its ancestor, lost the labial element and
moved the affricate, and then this was later re-borrowed
back into German.

For what it's worth, Svenska Akademiens Ordbok does mention
a MLG <ketser> beside MLG <quetser>, from MLG <quetsen>;
that makes the derivation a little less implausible, though
I've no information on when the MLG term is found.

[...]

Based on the evidence presented here, the most likely
seems that it comes from 'Katharos', from a language
that pronounced the stem [katar-] (which could well have
been as the name for the group). The change of [t] > [ts]
(written <tz>) is absolutely regularly in this position
in German, as part of the High German sound shift. With
an early enough date for the borrowing (before 800 I
think) the data fits perfectly.

I prefer the Cathar derivation, but your suggestion here
isn't possible: the Cathars are of 11th century vintage, and
the word isn't found in OHG. In fact, it appears in the
12th century, which fits nicely with a derivation from the
name of the sect. I've also seen a suggestion that the
Italian term <Gazari> may have been the immediate source,
but I've no idea whether it was used early enough for that
to be plausible.

[...]

Brian
.

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