Re: The Spanish Language in the US- Taboos and Complexes.


"mb" <azythos2@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1149726680.303445.28480@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Has it occurred to you to relate what you say about "physical
appearance" to what people's appearance shows about social class,
instead of the usual Amurrican obsession with the color of skin or
hair? I entirely understand Daniels' reaction.

I was particularly surprised by the assertion that getting replies in
Spanish in Argentina was supposed to prove the point about 'racist
Hispanics' in the US. What exactly would one expect people in Argentina to
reply in if not Spanish? That seemed to me like a particularly obtuse sort
of linguistic imperialism (one which many North Americans have espoused, and
in the process often created resentment about their countries when
travelling).

What you say about your Argentinian friend is confirmed by very many
reports by Spaniards and other speakers of Spanish.

For a time it looked to me, too, as what you surmised, i.e. that an
underdog-group was pre-empting the Spanish language as an in-group
sociolect (in the absence of a separate variety of Spanish). Of course,
the idea that this has to do with any "color" remains totally idiotic:
Those who exclude you do not all look like indios, far from it. But
they do look like poor people. There are no reports of middle-class of
middle-class looking "Hispanics" pretending not to understand
Castilian.
....
The same thing happens in areas where there is absolutely no difference
in physical appearance (except for the clothes). Just one example for
our days would be Albanians in Greece or Italy (who, I am told,
stubbornly refuse to acknowledge the language of the local Albanophones
trying to communicate). It was very frequent when the more
Northwesterly nations used to massively import Italians, Yugoslavs,
Turks, etc., distinguishable only by their clothes and haircut, not
their color.

In the US, people in insecure social conditions are very touchy about
not being confused with that just-got-off-the bus lowest stratum,
especially if they do belong to it. In English-speaking areas (includes
Tijuana and PR!), *not* being talked to in Spanish is a mark of
consideration and being addressed in Spanish is felt as insulting ("I
am not a dishwasher wetback who doesn't understand a word of English").

I think this is all exactly correct.

I can add one other point to this. I have met the occasional South Asian
who, although he has claimed to have lived most of his life in cities like
Delhi or Karachi, has pretended not to understand me when I spoke in
Hindi/Urdu. Pretended not even to recognise the language being used. I think
it's probably pretty much impossible to grow up in Delhi and avoid knowing
some Hindi; the thing was that these people all spoke excellent English and
probably felt insulted by the idea that somebody would want to speak to them
in another language.

The interesting thing is that these people were not from poorer classes -
rather the opposite, they were quite wealthy and successful. But that was
the point: the wealthy and successful in South Asia are expected to speak
English, which is (was) a status symbol and a mark of education. This is
certainly true of my grandparents' generation; the people I was talking to
in the West were of roughly my parents' generation (so born in the 50's or
60's). Some of the most severe examples I know are family members who
actually live in Jaipur! The English language is not the only thing; they
generally favour anything 'Western' and censure anything 'Indian'. They are
most impressed when I say I'm studying Latin and Greek at Oxford; they are
most disgusted when I mention that I'm also studying Sanskrit. (And by the
way, I'm studying none anymore - last exam was on Thursday, I'm done!!!
Thanks to everybody who sent me good vibes!)

To tie this into an earlier thread, it is these sorts of people who are
likely to be most offended if called 'desi': they would consider speaking
Hindi or Panjabi or so on as being 'desi' - rural, uneducated, poor, working
class - while speaking English is urbane and sophisticated. They would
probably use desi to describe other South Asian immigrants who don't speak
English as well as they do, and anything that, in general, is Indian and not
Western.

Salman Rushdie's *Satanic Verses* explores these different attitudes - it
is, after all, basically a book about the experiences of Indian emigrants
living in modern Britain (the Islamic dimension is almost secondary). One of
the main characters - Saladin Chamcha - embodies this anti-Indian
pro-Western attitude amongst Indians, and his own experiences in England
(basically total disillusionment) harden his character into something very,
very recognisable. Excellent book, although I suppose that the ideal
audience for it would be something like a Hindi-speaking Indian formerly
Muslim ex-pat living in Britain - no wonder people call Rushdie
narcissistic!

I should add in closing that it seems that Hanumizzle - since he was
surprised by my saying that 'desi' can be taken in this way - must be rather
better a people-person than InspiredPoet. As he said, attitude and
intentions go a long way; well done, Chris.

Neeraj Mathur


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