Re: Word count of minimum vocabulary

Lee Sau Dan wrote:

António> '1', '2', '3', '+', are ideographs.
>> No, they map to words. :)

António> Call me nuts, but I seldom map them to any words when
António> doing math.

Nor do I have to map a Japanese Kanji to a word when I read and
understand it.

You do, you map it to your HK word.

António> Anyhow, an ideogram may map to a word (along with others)
António> when 'mapping' is transitive.

But PTD says that since the Chinese character for "sun" can map to
words in Chinese and Japanese, it must not be an ideograph.

That's not the point he was making.

António> If an ideograph is used inside some text to represent a
António> word, it's being used as a logograph.

Since '1', '2', '3', '+' ARE used in some text to represent words,
they are logographs? And that makes them ineligible for being
ideographs?

Since I was precisely referring to them, what do I need to add to
'ideograph (...) being used as a logograph'?

António> As in _the '90s_, which accordingly have to take a plural
António> marker.
>> What about using the character for "sun" to indicate the sun?
>> Is it a logograph or ideograph?

António> Ideographical use of a logogram.

So, please don't rule out that possibility. When some people say
"Chinese characters are ideograms", they may be refering to that kind
of ideographic usage.

They might, but they're not.

>> And what if a Japanese student (being a native speaker of
>> Chinese) writes this character in a text message, even if he
>> doesn't know whether that should be pronounced as (and hences
>> mapped to words) <nichi>, <ni*> or <hi>? (* means a short
>> vowel here, as <ni*> in <nippon>) In this case, is he using the
>> character to convey the meaning (i.e. the sun), or a word (he
>> doesn't know whether it's <ni*> (Sino-Japanese) or <hi> (native
>> Japanese) in that context).

António> In this case, the student is taking advantage of
António> homography to mask ignorance.

True. But is that character here an ideogram?

No. The student doesn't mean the idea of 'sun', but a specific (even if
unknown) japanese word.

António> Very good, but the written text will have well-defined
António> set of readings (usually only one, but sometimes more due
António> to no language being phonetically injective). Compare
António> that to <1 + 2 = 3>, which have no reading in particular.

It does. "1" is "one", right?

'One' is the particular reading of <1>? Why, pray tell?

If "1" has no reading in particular, neither does the character for
"sun". Because it is different in Japanese and in Chinese.

Yes it does. It has a defined number of readings in each language it's
used in, and only a subset of those are possible given a context. If a
decision on the reading to use can't be reached, it's either because the
candidates are all valid or the writing system has a deficiency.

António> You may point out that one might devise an ideographical
António> system from the chinese characters. Make them independent
António> of the specifics of the language, find the general idea
António> to be conveyed by each one, and ditch the ones that don't
António> fit.

Even numbers like "95" are dependent on the specifics of the language.
It favors languages which reads the "9" before "5" (like English,
Chinese, Japanese), and penalizes those that reverses the order (like
German, Dutch) or others that use more complicated expressions (like
French). So, writing "9" before "5" already includes some specifics
of some languages.

Writing 9 before 5 is a mathematical convention. Its basic meaning, as
well you know, is 9 times the base plus five, the default base being 10.
The fact that it's '95' in countries such as Germany or France or
Denmark should illustrate how the use of ideograms is not tied to the
specifics of the language. The use of numerals is the same in China and
Japan. The use of hanza/kanji isn't.
--
am

laurus : rhodophyta : brezoneg : smalltalk : stargate
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Word count of minimum vocabulary
    ... >> Nor do I have to map a Japanese Kanji to a word when I read ... tie it up with any words -- whether Chinese words or Japanese ones. ... A logograph can be used ideographically, and an ideograph can be used ... do not the characters represent chinese ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: Word count of minimum vocabulary
    ... >> No, they map to words. ... But PTD says that since the Chinese character for "sun" can map to ... it must not be an ideograph. ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: Word count of minimum vocabulary
    ... António> other than a human language. ... There is no such word in Chinese. ... an ideograph can represent a word. ... António> In any given chinese text, do not the characters ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: China beat Columbus to it, perhaps
    ... Had there been such a "map", ... Had Zheng He, a.k.a. eunuch San Bao Tai Jien, ... invented by Chinese a thousand years earlier. ... post-war European scholarship, Dr Joseph Needham, passed away at the ...
    (soc.culture.china)
  • Re: Word count of minimum vocabulary
    ... >> Nor do I have to map a Japanese Kanji to a word when I read ... tie it up with any words -- whether Chinese words or Japanese ones. ... António> to add to 'ideograph being used as a logograph'? ... the characters, ...
    (sci.lang)