Re: A Slavonian name

<lorad474@xxxxxx> wrote in message news:1154201117.187066.206250@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
Paul J Kriha wrote:
<lorad474@xxxxxx> wrote in message
Wiktor S. wrote:
Today the name is Boleslaw (as far as I know).

That is the usual Polish spelling. It's a common Slavic name.
Other Western Slavs would spell it Boleslav with identical
pronounciation.

Polish spelling is Boles³aw, pronounced [bOlEswaf], while in other languages
Boleslav is pronounced with [l] not [w] after s.

[bOlEslav] or [bOlEslaf] with devoiced "f" when spoken fast.

Not sure about other slavic languages, but in Polish it does not depend on
how fast you speak :-) It's always [f] if the word is isolated or the next
word begins with unvoiced consonant, always [v] if the next word begins with
voiced consonant. Pronunciation ([v] or [f]) when followed by labial or
vowel varies in dialects.

It is absolutely not sure that the medieval Danish writer of the text
was aware of the "correct" Slavonian form!

You will find that the official documents, minted coins,
etc of the 13th (and earlier) century used various Latin spellings
of ruler names like Boleslau Dux, Oldricus Dux, Wratislau, Bratislau,
Wenzeslau, etc. (Cz: Boleslav, Oldr^ich, Vratislav, Bratislav,
Václav.)

Yes, it was a mess :-)

But why did Václav become Wenzeslau? The "slau" ending suggests that Václav
should end with the same "slav" as some other names, and what about "enze"
for "á"?
Azarien

Good previous comments.
I additionally suggest that everyone look to the meaning of the name
itself; it is an honorific.

Kriha could probably give a more confident meaning for <bOlEs> while

Did you mean [bOlEs]?

Yes, just as I posted.

Oh dear. It's as bad as that. You don't seem to know the difference
between angle and square brackets (<> and []).
One shows the literal written form and the other IPA phoneme
representation. <bOlEs> is insane.

The stem is probably just <Bole>, <s> is part of <slav>.

Obviously. Slavic and Baltic.

I was obviously not talking about any Baltic stems.


(Perhaps even Celtic as found in 'Fir/Vir Bolg'. Unless (as is more
likely, that) a foreign term was transmitted verbatim.)

Oh goodie goodie yam yams. You know what the Central
European Celtic languages sounded like. The Boii, the
Cottinni, the lot.


I am not absolutely sure of the etymology of <Bol(e)>.
Could be related to "male cattle" :-) No, that's silly.

Of course it is silly. Why do you even mention it?

Why do I mention it? It was just a little humourous aside.
I find most of what you write quite amusing.


Everyone knows 'BOL' to be the root for a meaning of 'large' or
'great'.
Obvious example is the russian 'Bolshoi'. The word means 'large or
great'.

Equally obvious examples are "VOL" and "VEL" roots meaning
'large' and 'great' even in Russian. They happen to be much
more common in W.Sl. often the only ones.

Remembering that "b" used to be used interchangeably with "v",

Only in Slavic orthography.
But we were discussing 'BOL'.

Not just Slavic orthography for sure.
Slavic names were the most likely Slavic words written down
since 800AD even in non-slavic, Latin and German texts.
There are hundreds of examples of name pronunciations
shifting from [b] to [v] and [v] to [b].

E.g. The name of a friend of mine is Babor. It has been pronounced
with two [b]s for many generations. Never-the-less, at one time his
ancestor's name was Bavor (an immigrant from Bavory, i.e. Bavaria).


it's quite likely to be a cognate of <vuole> (modern <vúle>),
sometimes also <vóle>, the will. THE WILL! No surprise then,
that it's been a favoured name of many dukes and kings.

No, you are confusing things.< Bol> (with a 'B') has nothing to do with
your totally differing 'V' formations for 'will'.

It's just a guesswork on my part.
Still, I wouldn't call <Vole> (the will) totally different
formation from <Bole> as in <Bole-slav>.


'The great' is a more fitting presumption that would be self-designated
by dukes and kings - not 'the will'.

<slavs> has a Baltic meaning of 'famous'. eg:' Famous
of/over/among/for <bOlEs>'..
(I am guessing a related Slavic meaning of 'large' or 'great')

<slav> is a very common slavic word stem meaning 'glory'

But it has a older Baltic meaning of 'famous'. In this regard I am more
concerned with its more original Baltic meaning.

Well, 'famous', it's the same in Sl.
As I said before, <slav> is a root from which there are literally
tens of words derived with related meanings.

How do you know that there was an 'older Baltic meaning'?
As far as I can recall the earliest snippet of the Baltic writing
(probably Prussian) were scribbled down in the 15th century
textbook by somebody studying at the Prague University
(in the Czech Republic). AFAIR, the longer text (psalms)
translations into Baltic were written in the 16th century.

How can you know that "slav" meant 'famous' in Baltic
languages, say in 2100BC, before it meant the same
thing in Slavic, in 2000BC?


(or 'celebrate' when verbalized) in various forms.
It means 'large' and 'great' just as much as English word
'glory' means 'large' or 'great'. Which is, not at all. :-|

Great strawmanship.

That had nothing to do with any strawman demagogy.
I used an analogy to illustrates the difference.


Applying the same interpretation to the <vác> of Vác(s)lav we have a
meaning of 'famous of/over/among/for Vác'

of/over/among/for? You also have to pay attention to declensions
of the constituent words.
The pre-christian slavic names of the form '(something)-slav'
usually implied that the person with such name
glorified/celebrated (something) or was being celebrated
by (something).

Just as I was saying; famous of/over/among/for ..as the original case
ending has been lost.

Jaroslav [snip]

Am not concerned about 'Yaroslav' just now.

Applying a Baltic interpretation for < vác'> we have a meaning of
'collector/raider' or by extension 'German' (see my previous
serendipitous <vaciesi> note), giving two possibilities:

1) 'famous raider'
2) 'famous of/over/among/for the Germans'

That is a red herring.
The original name which was being -slavved or -mirred :-)

Don't contradict yourself.
The discussion is indeed about what is 'slavved'; ie 'being famous
for'.
But no discussion re 'mir' was mentioned.

Any '-slav' Slavic name usually has a Slavic '-mir' counterpart.
It seems that '-slav' meant exactly the same thing as
the much older PIE '-mir'.

had no "c" in it. "c" is a relatively recent ortographic invention.

No it isn't. It is present in Baltic which predates any Slavic
language.
I was referring to the Baltic 'c' which was and is indeed still
present in Slavic; eg 'Vyat[c]eslav'.

You say Slavic, but you refer to the contemporary Russian forms.
I don't really know what you mean by Baltic 'c'.
Are you saying the Balts invented palatalized 'c'? :-)

There is a common personal name "C^estlav" or "C^eslav"
(there is also a town of C^áslav).
"C^est" = "Honour"

I would be tempted to analyze "Vjac^eslav" as a conflation
of three word roots "Binding-Honor-slav".


E.g. in the late 1500s it was still being written differently, often
as "ts" or "tz". Perhaps that's what happened to names like
Václav and Vroclav.

Obviously. The Baltic 'c' is pronounced as 'ts' or 'tz'.

I see, good, so it is different from Slavic 'c' and 'c^'
which are not slides.

The early medieval scribes well versed in Latin wrote
it as 'ts' because they couldn't think of a better way
of representing slavic 'c'.


When the scribes started to use a single
letter "c" for a single OCz consonant "ts" (in Cz. it's not a slide),
they may have gone too far. Václav was meant to be Vátslav
and Vroclav was meant to be Vrotslav (Brotslav/Bratslav).

I disagree totally. Give presumptive idiomatic meanings for Vat+slav
and Vrot+slav.
And then compare to 'Vac+slav' and 'Bol+slav'

I also note the the original 'Bolizlaus' is declined with a nominative
singular 's'.
Though it may be only in agreement with its contextual Latin nominative
singular, it also conforms to Baltic masculine nominative singular
's'. (but not Slavic in any case)

All old W.Slavic names (towns, rivers, mountains, rulers, etc.)
have Latin versions.

But we were not necessarily discussing Latin versions of Slavic names.
We were discussing unknown nomenclature.

Christianity, writing, etc. came to W.Slavs some 500-700
years earlier than to E.Baltic nations. And those early centuries
of the second millennium were the centuries during which the
latinized spellings of names exerted strong influence over there.

I have never noticed any of them having
anything to do with Baltic grammatical forms.

Then you unaware that Slavic is a recent offshoot of Baltic.

Yes, I confess I am, totally.

I thought Sanskrit was the recent offshoot of Baltic.
How wrong could I be?

pjk


.

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