Re: Cardinal vowels


benlizross wrote:
mb wrote:

I can remember being baffled when one of my high school teachers
referred to [Zül vERn], a writer I knew well as [julz vrn], author of
'20,000 Leagues under the Sea' etc. (This was not in French class, but
in a private conversation in English.) On the other hand, nowadays, I
commonly use nasalized vowels, front-rounded vowels, uvular R, and other
approximations to French phonetics when pronouncing French personal and
place names, and maybe sometimes short phrases of French. In some cases
I'm not even sure how I would anglicize these things if I were required
to.

With one proviso: You are doing an *approximation* to French phonetics
while speaking English. This is not the same thing as switching the
entire phonology (nasalized vowels, uvular r, etc are not enough for
that: we are talking about a different, for lack of a better word,
voice). If you kept the same mouth position as for English when
speaking French, it would be unexceptionable.

Well, I was being appropriately modest about my French-speaking
abilities. But you are suggesting that if I were to switch not only
these well known phonetic features, but this additional ineffable
quality of "voice" [surely not a good choice] or "mouth position", as
well, you would claim the right to be justifiably irritated? Why?

Because it is clear code-switching (which is practiced in very limited
amount in only a few places). And the "ineffable" is very real, in the
sense that it is immediately and universally recognized.

....
The other is simply clumsy performance. Many TV and radio speakers have
obviously had to attend courses in "correct" Maori pronunciation, but
some haven't really got the knack of it. They come up with things that
are phonetically neither one thing nor the other, and which sound clumsy
and unnatural. On the other hand, many do it very well, and it's hard
to see why anyone would be irritated by it.

That, I submit, is not comparable to the situation being discussed.
These people are not *perfectly bilingual* in both Maori and English,
and their *extra-phonemic* equipment in Maori is anybody's guess.

I'm sorry, I came in in the middle of this thread and I'm not sure what
the "situation being discussed" is. While you're probably right that
none of the pakeha newsreaders are perfectly bilingual, there are Maori
broadcasters who are (I think -- not sure what tests of perfection
you're proposing to apply) perfectly bilingual, who deliver reports in
English but switch to Maori phonology where appropriate. You're
suggesting you would find this more irritating than the pakeha
announcers' more or less clumsy attempts at Maori phonetics? This seems
deeply perverse.

I do not know a single word of Maori, so I'll give a simple example.
Italian is a mother tongue. I speak English every day. What should I
say for "spaghetti" in the middle of an English sentence, "spaghetti"
with the voice I use for English (still keeping the t and the double t,
nothing fancy) or "spaghetti" with my Northern Italian voice, vowels
and tone (completely different)? People who speak multiple languages
generally learn to keep them well apart before learning to walk.

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Cardinal vowels
    ... with all the French names in perfect French pronunciation ... while speaking English. ... Maori personal and place names, to the extent that I've wondered whether ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: Cardinal vowels
    ... with all the French names in perfect French pronunciation ... You are doing an *approximation* to French phonetics ... while speaking English. ... Maori personal and place names, to the extent that I've wondered whether ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: Cardinal vowels
    ... approximations to French phonetics when pronouncing French personal and ... while speaking English. ... Because it is clear code-switching (which is practiced in very limited ... These people are not *perfectly bilingual* in both Maori and English, ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: Cardinal vowels
    ... approximations to French phonetics when pronouncing French personal and ... You are doing an *approximation* to French phonetics ... while speaking English. ... These people are not *perfectly bilingual* in both Maori and English, ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: Cardinal vowels
    ... with all the French names in perfect French pronunciation ... You are doing an *approximation* to French phonetics ... while speaking English. ... Maori personal and place names, to the extent that I've wondered whether ...
    (sci.lang)