Re: Odainsakur

On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 23:17:35 GMT, Heidi Graw
<hgraw@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in
<jyXlh.105426$YV4.83355@edtnps89">news:jyXlh.105426$YV4.83355@edtnps89> in sci.lang:

"Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:jz75kcgf4exf.v30y9ibu0kfw.dlg@xxxxxxxxxxxxx

On Sun, 31 Dec 2006 20:45:44 GMT, Heidi Graw
<hgraw@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in
<news:YjVlh.110974$hn.95647@edtnps82> in sci.lang:

(snip)

Perhaps Zurich was an popular centre where an important
heathen temple had been built where Ziu was worshipped
and his guidance was sought. Rich from Richter...judge.
The seat of the Ziu-Richter might have morphed into the
word Zurich over time.

Utter rubbish.

<chuckle>

<shrug> Fact.

A 2nd century CE gravestone mentions STA
TVR, i.e., Stationis Turicensis, attesting to the Roman name
<Turicum>. Medieval Latin forms include <Turigum> 807,
<Turegum> ca. 853, <Thuregum> 876, and <Thuricum> 1290.

Brian, I really don't care what the *Romans* named a city.

The more fool you.

What I'm interested in is what the *Germanics* called
their own cities.

The German name is transparently derived from the Roman
name. Anyone with the slightest knowledge of the history of
the Germanic languages can see this.

Early German forms include <Zurih> 810 x 820, and <Zurihc>
924, and the Zürichgau appears as <Zurigavia> 744. The
German name is clearly derived from the older Latin name:
<Zurih> is exactly what one would expect <Turic-> to become
in Old High German.

Alright, there we go. The German Ziu.

None so blind as those who haven't two brain cells to rub
together. There is no <Ziu> or <Zio> there. There are
simply the normal sound developments of Old High German.

Nevermind the Latin!

Rather difficult, since OHG <Zurih> wouldn't exist without
Latin <Turicom>. They're the same name: Lat. Turicum >
VLat. *Turico, which was borrowed into Gmc. in some very
similar form and then underwent the High German sound shift
to become <Zurih>. This is about as straightforward as
historical linguistics gets.

[...]

Moreover, cognates of <Richter> were rarely used in the
older Germanic languages; the usual OHG word for 'judge' was
<tuomo>, and you'd have a very hard time getting <Zürich>
from *Ziestuomun.

Germanic "hafa rad" to have rede (wisdom)

'Germanic', eh? Oh, brother. It certainly isn't
Proto-Germanic, and it doesn't appear to be any particular
Gmc. language, either: <hafa> is Old Norse, but the ON
cognate of German <Rat> is <ráð>, whose primary sense is
'advice, counsel', not 'wisdom'.

For that matter ME <rede> is not 'wisdom'; its basic
meaning, like that of OE <ræ:ð> and ON <ráð>, is 'advice,
counsel', and indeed this is pretty much the sense of the
PGmc. *re:daz from which they came. The associated verb,
*re:dan, had to do with taking and giving advice, taking
care or charge of something, having control over something,
and the like.

And of course you couldn't possibly be bothered to consider
whether 'have wisdom' would have been idiomatic even if you
*had* got the elements right. Or to recognize that the
early Gmc. languages were highly inflected. (The OHG phrase
would have been something like <Zio habet rat>, though (a)
it wouldn't have meant what you want it to mean, and (b) it
very likely wouldn't have been idiomatic anyway.)

Ziurad (Ziu has rede)

Come, now: surely even you aren't stupid enough to confuse
'X has Y' with 'X Y'!

Zurad (changed Ziu who has rede)
Zurich (changed Ziu and rad from Richter...German Rat...rede.)

Purest moonshine.

I'd advice you not to approach things too much from the
Latin angle.

But Heidi, your advice on historical linguistics is utterly
worthless: you're a complete ignoramus on the subject.
Ignorance can in principle be correctly, but you've
repeatedly shown that you'd rather remain ignorant than give
up your fantasies. Your ignorance of historical context is
almost as impressive.

[...]
.

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