Re: The Origins of Zürich...


"Brian M. Scott" <b.scott@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:4e5l3gn39s11$.vgkze76jguyh.dlg@xxxxxxxxxxxxx
On Mon, 01 Jan 2007 20:58:39 GMT, Heidi Graw
<hgraw@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in
<3Cemh.112581$hn.26669@edtnps82">news:3Cemh.112581$hn.26669@edtnps82> in sci.lang:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Z%C3%BCrich

The Roman vicus of Turicum first belonged to the province
of Gallia Belgica, and to Germania superior from AD 90.
Following Constantine's reform of the Empire in 318, the
border between the praetorian prefectures of Gaul and
Italy was just east of Turicum crossing the Linth between
Lake Zürich and Walensee. Roman Turicum was not
fortified, but there was a small garrison at the
tax-collecting point, set up not exactly on the border,
but downstream of Lake Zürich, where the goods entering
Gaul were loaded onto larger ships.

(snip)

The earliest record of the town's name is preserved on a
2nd century tombstone found in the 18th century on
Lindenhof, referring to the Roman castle as STA(tio)
TUR(i)CEN(sis). The city's patron saints, Felix and
Regula according to legend were executed at the location
of the Wasserkirche in 286.

The Alamanni settled in the Swiss plateau from the 5th
century, but the Roman castle persisted into the 7th
century. The earliest manuscript mention of the
settlement, as castellum turegum, describes the mission
of Columban in 610. An 8th century list of toponyms from
Ravenna mentions Ziurichi. There is a legendary account
of an Alamannic duke Uotila residing on, and giving his
name to, the Üetliberg.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The earliest inhabitants of the future site of Zurich were
the lake dwellers. The Celtic Helvetians had a
settlement on the Lindenhof when they were succeeded by
the Romans,

*****
Heidi wrote:
Notice that the Romans named an already existing
settlement "Turicum"..

Brian wrote:
I told you that before. I also told you that the name is
thought most probably to be derived from a Celtic personal
name <Turus> (or <Turos>).

Fine, I can accept that the Roman Turicum was derived from the Celtic Turus.

And if you could read, you would
notice that your sources says that the Germanic Alamanni
didn't arrive until the FIFTH century, while the
predecessors of the Romans were Celtic.

And the Germanic Alamanni did not speak the Celtic and Latin language. They
spoke their own language, bringing with them their own gods, Ziu and Zisa,
and named the place according to their own Alamanni fashion which included a
reference to their male god Ziu. Turus and Ziu are *not* related! Tur to
Ziu is a huge leap to make.

Heidi wrote:
it is the Roman's name for it. Notice there is no
mention of Lake Turicum, but rather a Lake Zürich.

That's the *modern* name for it, you idiot.

I know that, Brian. But the Alamannis did not speak Celtic or Latin. They
spoke the "Alamanni" language.

Heidi wrote:
The words appear to co-exist.

Brian wrote:
Obviously not. Neither the English word <lake> nor the
modern place-name <Zürich> existed in Roman times.

However, it is entirely possible that between the 5th-Century when the
Alamanni first arrived and when Ravenna made mention of Ziurichi in the
8th-Century, the name for the place at the very least co-existed alongside
the Roman name. Ziurichi in the Alamanni's mind and Turicum in the Roman's
mind.

You can't read. <Ziurichi> is the OHG name of the
settlement,

But the Alamanni arrived to the area in the 5th-Century, bringing with them
their own language and their own customs and religious beliefs.

and your source dates it to the EIGHTH century,
long after the Romans. (Actually, it's from the so-called
Ravenna Cosmography, so more probably very late 7th
century.)

For at least 3 centuries the two different names appear to have co-existed.

Brian wrote:
In <Ziurichi>? Nothing at all: it's not an independent
element, any more than <Ziu-> is.

Ziu is an independent element. It's a name for the Alimanni's god. The
switch from iu to ü is a logical step to make. Ziu to Zü. This leaves
"richi" as an element for which a meaning must be found. I'm going to make
a guess: Ziu-richi....Ziu-richter...Zürich...Ziu's judgement seat...a place
where Alamanni assemblies occured and where crimes were tried.

Heidi




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