Re: The Origins of Zürich...


Dusan Vukotic wrote:

Harlan Messinger wrote:

Dusan Vukotic wrote:
Brian M. Scott wrote:

On Mon, 01 Jan 2007 20:58:39 GMT, Heidi Graw
<hgraw@xxxxxxxxx> wrote in
<3Cemh.112581$hn.26669@edtnps82">news:3Cemh.112581$hn.26669@edtnps82> in sci.lang:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Z%C3%BCrich
The Roman vicus of Turicum first belonged to the province
of Gallia Belgica, and to Germania superior from AD 90.
Following Constantine's reform of the Empire in 318, the
border between the praetorian prefectures of Gaul and
Italy was just east of Turicum crossing the Linth between
Lake Zürich and Walensee. Roman Turicum was not
fortified, but there was a small garrison at the
tax-collecting point, set up not exactly on the border,
but downstream of Lake Zürich, where the goods entering
Gaul were loaded onto larger ships.
(snip)
The earliest record of the town's name is preserved on a
2nd century tombstone found in the 18th century on
Lindenhof, referring to the Roman castle as STA(tio)
TUR(i)CEN(sis). The city's patron saints, Felix and
Regula according to legend were executed at the location
of the Wasserkirche in 286.
The Alamanni settled in the Swiss plateau from the 5th
century, but the Roman castle persisted into the 7th
century. The earliest manuscript mention of the
settlement, as castellum turegum, describes the mission
of Columban in 610. An 8th century list of toponyms from
Ravenna mentions Ziurichi. There is a legendary account
of an Alamannic duke Uotila residing on, and giving his
name to, the Üetliberg.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
The earliest inhabitants of the future site of Zurich were
the lake dwellers. The Celtic Helvetians had a
settlement on the Lindenhof when they were succeeded by
the Romans,
*****
Notice that the Romans named an already existing
settlement "Turicum"..
I told you that before. I also told you that the name is
thought most probably to be derived from a Celtic personal
name <Turus> (or <Turos>). And if you could read, you would
notice that your sources says that the Germanic Alamanni
didn't arrive until the FIFTH century, while the
predecessors of the Romans were Celtic.

it is the Roman's name for it. Notice there is no
mention of Lake Turicum, but rather a Lake Zürich.
That's the *modern* name for it, you idiot.

The words appear to co-exist.
Obviously not. Neither the English word <lake> nor the
modern place-name <Zürich> existed in Roman times.

Turicum by Lake Zürich. A Ravenna document mentions
Ziurichi. Lake Ziurichi would have been the actual word
already known for Lake Zürich near which Turicum was
located.
You can't read. <Ziurichi> is the OHG name of the
settlement, and your source dates it to the EIGHTH century,
long after the Romans. (Actually, it's from the so-called
Ravenna Cosmography, so more probably very late 7th
century.)

[...]

What remains to be determined is the word "richi." What
does it mean?
In <Ziurichi>? Nothing at all: it's not an independent
element, any more than <Ziu-> is.

I think that Zirich has got its name according to the word "circle",
Latin 'circa' (round, around), Serbian 'krug' (circle). Similar
"circle" names of the European cities could be found everywhere, Giron,
Kiiruna (Finland), Kiruna (Sweden), Krakow (Poland), Kranj (Slovenia),
Kerch - Керчь (Russia), Kercz (Poland), Kertsch (Germany); Corc
(Wels), Corcaigh (Ireland), Cork (Danish, Dutch, German, Italian,
Spanish, Swedish), Korka (Latvia), Corcagium (Latin); Kruševac,
Kruša, Čurug (Serbia), Corunha (Portugal) etc.
>
> German 'Be-zirk-en'

Your hypothesis: "If the name of a city can be made to sound like some
word in some European or Middle Eastern or Central Asian language that
has anything to do with the idea of circles, circularity, roundness,
then that's all I need to conclude that the city was probably named for
a circle."

Thank goodness scholars learned better reasoning than this centuries ago.

I would say that the name Zürich is older than its Latin version
Turicum.

Of course you would. But what would lead you to think that anyone else
considers an assertion to be persuasive just because you "would say" it,
sans evidence?

\...Thank goodness scholars learned better REASONING than this
centuries ago...\

Even 'ratio' (reason), the word your are trying to adduce as a key
argument is a "prodact" of a 'circle'. Compare it with the Gothic
'raþjō' (garaþana), German Rechnung and Serbian 'račun' (računanje
reckoning).
These words ara coming from the HOR-GON basis. Hor is the sun, i.e. a
round-shaped object (circle). Don't you see that 'round' also sprung
from the HOR-GON basis (KRUG circa)? The word 'rede' (OE rædan, Ger.
Rat) could be (as Heidi suggested) the one part of the name Zürich
combined with the divinity-name Ziu (Zius, Zeus, Siva, Serb. Živi
Bog). It appears more logical that Tyr and Tys were derived from Zie(s)
than vice versa, because the dentals (t and d) are the youngest sounds
in the IE voice hierarchy.

Ask Brainy - he knows all the truth in the world, he is always sure of
what he says. (-:

DV

Although I cannot completely exclude the Heidi's Ziu-rihi hypothesis I
am more inclined to believe that the name Zürich was a simple
"circle-derivative". It is similar to the Serbian place name of Churug
(northern part of Serbia). Nevertheless, whatever it was, the
undeniable fact is that the name Zürich is much older than Turicum!

DV

.

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