Re: yiddish


mb wrote:
On Jan 26, 2:33 pm, phogl...@xxxxxx wrote:
Peter T. Daniels wrote:
...
It is not "of course a German dialect to start with." It does not fit
(neatly or otherwise) into the German-dialect-continuum.

Nor do the German dialects of northern Italy, and still they are
perceived as German dialects. Besides, there is quite a bit of mutual
intelligibility between German and Yiddish. And actually, it does to
some extent fit - it is still distinctively Rhinelandish.

On the other hand, it has its own distinct literature and
its literary norm. On the gripping hand, even recent history knows
examples of native Yiddish speakers who turned to standard German for
literary purposes.

A distinctive literature is a criterion to be taken into account in
such questions, but it isn't probative by any means.

Maybe not, but a distinct literary norm, using a different alphabet, is
quite a criterion indeed.

Criterion of what? We have a very clearly high German language, with a
level of structural borrowing that would only be characterized as
"mild" on the usual scales. Politically or religiously motivated
differences in alphabet are a worldwide phenomenon and they do not
supersede the genetic relaptionships except for politically motivated
nationalist nonsense.

Read it anew. I said "a distinct literary norm, using a different
alphabet". The point is a sociolinguistic one. Both the distinct
literary norm and the different alphabet are part of it. A distinct
literary norm does not just entail "politically motivated nationalist
nonsense", but it might also entail a different set of dialects as
basis for the standard language. This is very much the case with
Yiddish, which is essentially a West Middle German dialect, while the
German standard language has a much broader dialectal basis.

As Peter pointed out elsewhere in this discussion, linguists do not do
languages or dialects, they do varieties, continua and diasystems. So,
the very concept of language versus dialect is indeed very much a
question of sociolinguistics, politics, and "politically motivated
nonsense". If there is a criterion for "language" versus "dialect",
it is very much the existence of distinct literary norms and distinct
literatures. And if different standard varieties are codified for
different parts of the same dialect continuum and become influential,
linguistic differences tend to be strengthened and reinforced by the
exposure to different standard varieties, to the extent that the
continuum actually splits into several linguistic communities along
political borders, especially if the borders are geographically sound
(i.e. there are natural obstacles along borders, such as mountain
ranges).

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Plausibility Check
    ... I thought he meant to say that dialects of one language (eg. ... homogenized dachsprache of several regional German dialects. ... These colloquials are definitely not the result ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: The high German consonant shift
    ... In Southern German dialects. ... modern dialectical usage has nothing to do with 9th century usage and the Consonantal Shift in Old High German which the examples I gave are but illustrative examples. ... So methinks that your "SG" dialects and examples are actually all NORTHERN dialects, which is where we'd expect to find ikke, Vadda, etc. ...
    (soc.history.medieval)
  • Re: Prussian spelling of "Versch" needed
    ... We Americans tend to say danke ... The German language nowadays is becoming ... only dialects for most people. ...
    (soc.genealogy.german)
  • Re: KT boundry event
    ... The dialects have diverged due to unique ... but there's no reason to think that Germans inhabit some kind of ... other German speakers. ... the dialect was close enough to English to be ...
    (talk.origins)
  • Re: yiddish
    ... intelligibility between German and Yiddish. ... its literary norm. ... quite a criterion indeed. ...
    (sci.lang)