Re: s->h


<lorad474@xxxxxx> wrote...
"John Atkinson" <johna...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Someone else:
> John A:

>> The Latin noun "passus" comes from Old Latin "padtus" by the >> regular
>> sound change "-dt-" > "-ss-" . That is, "pad-" stretch" with >> suffix
>> "-t-" denoting verbal action (the stretch of the legs in walking).
>> The
>> verb "pandere", stretch, bend (PP "passus") is cognate. "Pad-" >> and
>> "pand-" apparently come from PIE "*pandos", bent (as does Old >> Norse
>> fattr).

> Wouldn't *pedtus seems a more sensible term for walking?

If you're meaning PIE *ped-tus, where *ped- means fall, the Latin
derivative pessus means "on the ground".

The PIE root *ped- means fall (> Sanskrit padyate, falls, OCS pado, I
fall, Russian padat', to fall ) and also foot (> *pedom, footprint,
track > Latin peda, sole, footprint, Sanskrit padam, track, OCS podu,
ground, and Russian pod, hearth -- also the preposition pod, under, I
suspect).

It seems to me that PIE *pa(n)d- and *ped- (and also *pent, find one's
way) were different roots, and that the resemblances in form and meaning
of many of their derivatives is coincidental. But maybe some of the
experts around here could comment on this.
............

Well, rather than waiting for hell to freeze over, let's consider what
we have....

We have your:
" Latin peda, sole, footprint"
" Sanskrit padam, track"
" OCS podu -ground"
" Russian pod, hearth"
" also the preposition pod, under"

My additions to the grist:
Latin -"pedes : going on foot, walking /foot-soldier, infantryman."
Latvian - "pēda" = 'foot'
Classical Greek -podês = 'foot'
Russian - (Idti) peshkom = (to go) 'by foot'

I already mentioned peSkom (and peSka, pawn), and DV gave Serbian peSak, which would be (I think) peSyk in Russian (the masculine of peSka). And peSkom is presumably just the instrumental case of peSyk.

Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon: Search Results for 'PAND' gives:
"1 paND (prob. invented to serve as the root of the words below)

- "to go , move Dha1tup. viii , 29 ; cl. 10. P.%{paNDayati} , to heap
together , pile up (v.l. for %{piND}) , xxxii , 130 Vop. ; cl. 1. or
10. P. %{paNDati} , %{-Dayati} , to destroy , annihilate , xxxii , 73
(v.l. for %{paMs}). "

- "19 pratipad A1. %{-padyate} (ep. fut. also %{-patsyati}) , to set
foot upon , enter , go or resort to , arrive at , resch , attain VS.
&c. &c. ; to walk , wander , roam"

'Pada '- 'foot'
'pratipad' - 'to set foot upon'
....

Conclusions:
1) I can't find your "Old Latin "padtus". Where did you find it?

I should have written *padtus probably, since AFAIR, it's unattested. (Sorry, forget which ref I got it from.)

In Latin pando/pandere/pandi/passum, to spread out, it seems pretty likely that "passum" comes from earlier "padtum", a standard sound change. And passus, pace, is the masculine of passum.

2) Both "pad-" and "pand-" cannot come from *PIE "*pandos",

I won't insist on that point. After all, I did say "apparently".

I see that the first book I pick up (Mallory and Adams) says Latin pand/pad comes from *petH-" spread out (as the arms)" (cf E "fathom", Grk pitnemi). Not saying M&A are wrong, I bet they're not, but, if they're right, why t > d, which isn't usual in Latin?

because we
require the notion of 'walking by foot' in order to accomodate 'pad/
ped//pod'. 'Bending' has nothing to do with the examples of walking
given.

ped/pod seem to be the same root (fall/foot). But pad is different, at least in Latin.

"Bend" and "stretch/spread" seem pretty close (You both bend and spread your legs while walking.) So I'm not convinced by this argument. But, like I said, I'm quite prepared to accept that *pandos has nothing to do with "pandere" (and, therefore, "passus").

3) 'Pand' as 'bend' has little to do with pedestrian travel. As you
noted; different roots.

Besides.. it appears to have been 'invented to serve as a root' in the
case of Sanskrit.

I don't know the Sanskrit word referred to, but *pand seems to have been invented to explain Latin "pandus", curved, and ON fattr.

But as I said above, I'm quite happy to accept that "pandus" and "pandere" come from different roots.

4) 'Falling' is not consistent with 'pedestrian travel'. The ample
'ped' roots point to motive extremities - not falling..

Apparently the IE's, when they wanted to go somewhere, SPREAD (petH(?)) their legs, let their FEET (ped) FALL (ped), and FOUND (pent) their way.

5) If the *PIE root *ped- means 'fall' - then *PIE is incorrect.
Again.

Eh?

Russian padat', fall, drop; padalitsa, windfall; padal', fallen fruit; padezh, case(grammar); padyozh, murrain; padenie, downfall; vpadat', fall in; ypadok, decay, decadence.

OE gefatan, fall; Av paiDyaiti, moves down, plunges down; Latin pessum (*pedtum) to the ground. (But I got these three from the same source as padyate, and haven't cross-checked them; so maybe they're wrong too? :)

6) Sanskrit 'pratipad' and 'padyate' do not mean 'fall', rather they
mean 'to set foot on' and also 'to go'.

Don't know about pratipad, but Mallory and Adams claim "padyate" is "fall" and comes from *ped-, fall (verb). OTOH, I see no objection to it coming from *ped-, foot (noun), which after all is the same root (but see below).

7) "Russian pod, hearth -- also the preposition pod".. is incorrect.
We have two errors here:

a) We are dealing with a 'pod' root - not the 'po' prefix here.

Quite! That's exactly what I was insisting myself, a couple of posts back! They come ultimately from *ped-, which is a completely different root from *pos, which led to "po-".

(But understanding 'po' will also solve the meaning for Sanskrit
'padyate' - which Baltic and Slavic readers should easily catch)

You'll have to explain it to me then :) I thought you were saying above that padyate was a *ped word. Are you now saying it's cognate with Russian po-iti, Lith pa-eiti (PIE *pos-Hei-) -- or are you just pointing out that, coincidentally, it means roughly the same thing?

b) "OCS podu = ground" and " Russian pod = hearth" do not utilize the
'po' prefix... but merely indicate that earth (clay) was used for
ceramic pots and/or was used for making hearths.

Of course they don't involve "po"! Wherever did you get the idea that I said they did!

What I said was (cf Mallory and Adams), that podU and pod come from *ped, foot/fall -- via *pedom, footprint, track. Cf Greek "pedon", ground, for another branch of IE where the same semantic shift has happened.

Mallory and Adams claim the PIE root *ped-, fall and *ped- foot are the same root -- i.e., not two different roots that happen to be homonyms. This seems very plausible to me, but I'm not about to swear they couldn't be wrong.

John.







.

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