Re: s->h

On Feb 20, 2:55 pm, "John Atkinson" <johna...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
<lorad...@xxxxxx> wrote...
"John Atkinson" <johna...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
Someone else:
John A:
The Latin noun "passus" comes from Old Latin "padtus" by the
regular
sound change "-dt-" > "-ss-" . That is, "pad-" stretch" with
suffix
"-t-" denoting verbal action (the stretch of the legs in walking).
The
verb "pandere", stretch, bend (PP "passus") is cognate. "Pad-"
and
"pand-" apparently come from PIE "*pandos", bent (as does Old
Norse
fattr).

Wouldn't *pedtus seems a more sensible term for walking?

If you're meaning PIE *ped-tus, where *ped- means fall, the Latin
derivative pessus means "on the ground".

The PIE root *ped- means fall (> Sanskrit padyate, falls, OCS pado,
I
fall, Russian padat', to fall ) and also foot (> *pedom, footprint,
track > Latin peda, sole, footprint, Sanskrit padam, track, OCS podu,
ground, and Russian pod, hearth -- also the preposition pod, under, I
suspect).

It seems to me that PIE *pa(n)d- and *ped- (and also *pent, find
one's
way) were different roots, and that the resemblances in form and
meaning
of many of their derivatives is coincidental. But maybe some of the
experts around here could comment on this.

...........

Well, rather than waiting for hell to freeze over, let's consider what
we have....
We have your:
" Latin peda, sole, footprint"
" Sanskrit padam, track"
" OCS podu -ground"
" Russian pod, hearth"
" also the preposition pod, under"
My additions to the grist:
Latin -"pedes : going on foot, walking /foot-soldier, infantryman."
Latvian - "pēda" = 'foot'
Classical Greek -podês = 'foot'
Russian - (Idti) peshkom = (to go) 'by foot'

I already mentioned peSkom (and peSka, pawn), and DV gave Serbian peSak,
which would be (I think) peSyk in Russian (the masculine of peSka). And
peSkom is presumably just the instrumental case of peSyk.

Cologne Digital Sanskrit Lexicon: Search Results for 'PAND' gives:
"1 paND (prob. invented to serve as the root of the words below)
- "to go , move Dha1tup. viii , 29 ; cl. 10. P.%{paNDayati} , to heap
together , pile up (v.l. for %{piND}) , xxxii , 130 Vop. ; cl. 1. or
10. P. %{paNDati} , %{-Dayati} , to destroy , annihilate , xxxii , 73
(v.l. for %{paMs}). "
- "19 pratipad A1. %{-padyate} (ep. fut. also %{-patsyati}) , to set
foot upon , enter , go or resort to , arrive at , resch , attain VS.
&c. &c. ; to walk , wander , roam"
'Pada '- 'foot'
'pratipad' - 'to set foot upon'

...

Conclusions:
1) I can't find your "Old Latin "padtus". Where did you find it?

I should have written *padtus probably, since AFAIR, it's unattested.
(Sorry, forget which ref I got it from.)

In Latin pando/pandere/pandi/passum, to spread out, it seems pretty
likely that "passum" comes from earlier "padtum", a standard sound
change. And passus, pace, is the masculine of passum.

2) Both "pad-" and "pand-" cannot come from *PIE "*pandos",

I won't insist on that point. After all, I did say "apparently".

I see that the first book I pick up (Mallory and Adams) says Latin
pand/pad comes from *petH-" spread out (as the arms)" (cf E "fathom",
Grk pitnemi). Not saying M&A are wrong, I bet they're not, but, if
they're right, why t > d, which isn't usual in Latin?

because we
require the notion of 'walking by foot' in order to accomodate 'pad/
ped//pod'. 'Bending' has nothing to do with the examples of walking
given.

ped/pod seem to be the same root (fall/foot). But pad is different, at
least in Latin.

"Bend" and "stretch/spread" seem pretty close (You both bend and spread
your legs while walking.) So I'm not convinced by this argument. But,
like I said, I'm quite prepared to accept that *pandos has nothing to do
with "pandere" (and, therefore, "passus").

3) 'Pand' as 'bend' has little to do with pedestrian travel. As you
noted; different roots.
Besides.. it appears to have been 'invented to serve as a root' in the
case of Sanskrit.

I don't know the Sanskrit word referred to, but *pand seems to have been
invented to explain Latin "pandus", curved, and ON fattr.

But as I said above, I'm quite happy to accept that "pandus" and
"pandere" come from different roots.

4) 'Falling' is not consistent with 'pedestrian travel'. The ample
'ped' roots point to motive extremities - not falling..

Apparently the IE's, when they wanted to go somewhere, SPREAD (petH(?))
their legs, let their FEET (ped) FALL (ped), and FOUND (pent) their way.

5) If the *PIE root *ped- means 'fall' - then *PIE is incorrect.
Again.

Eh?

Russian padat', fall, drop; padalitsa, windfall; padal', fallen fruit;
padezh, case(grammar); padyozh, murrain; padenie, downfall; vpadat',
fall in; ypadok, decay, decadence.

OE gefatan, fall; Av paiDyaiti, moves down, plunges down; Latin pessum
(*pedtum) to the ground. (But I got these three from the same source as
padyate, and haven't cross-checked them; so maybe they're wrong too? :)

6) Sanskrit 'pratipad' and 'padyate' do not mean 'fall', rather they
mean 'to set foot on' and also 'to go'.

Don't know about pratipad, but Mallory and Adams claim "padyate" is
"fall" and comes from *ped-, fall (verb). OTOH, I see no objection to
it coming from *ped-, foot (noun), which after all is the same root (but
see below).

7) "Russian pod, hearth -- also the preposition pod".. is incorrect.
We have two errors here:
a) We are dealing with a 'pod' root - not the 'po' prefix here.

Quite! That's exactly what I was insisting myself, a couple of posts
back! They come ultimately from *ped-, which is a completely different
root from *pos, which led to "po-".

(But understanding 'po' will also solve the meaning for Sanskrit
'padyate' - which Baltic and Slavic readers should easily catch)

You'll have to explain it to me then :) I thought you were saying above
that padyate was a *ped word. Are you now saying it's cognate with
Russian po-iti, Lith pa-eiti (PIE *pos-Hei-) -- or are you just pointing
out that, coincidentally, it means roughly the same thing?

b) "OCS podu = ground" and " Russian pod = hearth" do not utilize the
'po' prefix... but merely indicate that earth (clay) was used for
ceramic pots and/or was used for making hearths.

Of course they don't involve "po"! Wherever did you get the idea that I
said they did!

What I said was (cf Mallory and Adams), that podU and pod come from
*ped, foot/fall -- via *pedom, footprint, track. Cf Greek "pedon",
ground, for another branch of IE where the same semantic shift has
happened.

Mallory and Adams claim the PIE root *ped-, fall and *ped- foot are the
same root -- i.e., not two different roots that happen to be homonyms.
This seems very plausible to me, but I'm not about to swear they
couldn't be wrong.

John.

John, I think you owe me an answer... :-)

English 'fall' is the same word as Serbian 'palo' (fallen, past
participle, 3rd p. s.). In fact, the Serbian 'palo' is a contraction
from 'padnulo' (pad + gon + lo; Serb.padanje /falling/ suffixed by -lo
syllable, denotining something what passed away, as if by water; Serb.
li, liti /pour, suffuse; *(b)elgon -lake).

We can see also that the Serbian word 'pod' (floor) is in a close
relation with the words 'poljana' (field), 'poleđina' (background;
hence 'ledina' turf; also the English 'field' BLD), from *BLGN basis.
Compare the next Serbian words: 'poljana', 'poledina', 'pod' (floor),
'put', 'padanje' (falling), 'poći' (go, walk; from 'pohod'; 'hodati'
go, 'hod' walk, imp. idi! go!; 'ići' walk), 'peta' (heel), 'peti
se' (from 'penjati' climb), 'pešačenje' (walking, go by foot),
'pohođenje' (touring, traveling).

Now I hope that you will be able to grasp that the key word for the
understanding of the development of all above words is the Serbian
word 'polaženje' (outset, start!), i.e., 'pogon' (drive, pro-pulsion!)
or 'polaganje' (lay down). Probably, someone would have asked here,
how the words 'polaženje' and 'polaganje' (place, lay down) could have
been related in sense of their (different) meanings? The problem of
this "riddle" can be solved if we observe the behavior of water:
Serbian 'puniti' (from 'polniti' fill), 'politi' (suffuse, splash),
'plinuti' (from 'oblinuti' splash, flood, perfuse; 'plima' tide).

When the water broke the dam it starts (Serb. polaženje) to rush out
of its previous confinement (Serb. plinuti, bljunuti); almost
immediately that water begins to flood the surrounding fields (Serb.
polje, poljana, poledina); it means that water lays down (Serb.
polaganje) over the land in a clear horizontal position. During the
winter this horizontal water surface (layer!) is getting frosted
(Serb. 'poleđeno' frosted, 'led' ice).

Finnaly, we can clearly see that Serbian 'poljana' (field) is the
flattened(!) (Serb. 'polegnut') part of land (compare English 'land'
and Serbian 'led' /ice). Most of the English words, mentioned in the
context of above "story" (field, flood, pulse, lay, fall, flatten
etc.), completely fit in the same scheme as Serbian.

If you read carefully the above explanation you probably would
understand that the geneses of Slavic prepositions took a little bit
different path than it was supposed by the contemporary main stream
linguists.

DV

.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: s->h
    ... fall, Russian padat', to fall) and also foot (> *pedom, footprint, ... ground, and Russian pod, hearth -- also the preposition pod, under, I ... " Latin peda, sole, footprint" ... noted; different roots. ...
    (sci.lang)
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    ... Greek and Latvian it probably only had that meaning. ... If Latvian is a satem language, it's impossible for Latvian eka to be cognate with Greek ... oi-no> Latin unus, and with a different suffix -ka became IIr. ... H1oi-, in *H1oinos and H1oikos, is just the same root in o-grade. ...
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    ... but have you ever taken a Linguistics course? ... > descended from the same ancestral root; ... > Spanish word descended from the same Latin word. ... > cognate itself, ...
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