Re: Ethiopic writing Re: intrinsic advantage of Latin alphabet over bopomofo (for Chinese)??

On 6 maalis, 22:42, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
On Mar 6, 12:55 pm, phogl...@xxxxxx wrote:



On 6 maalis, 16:22, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:

On Mar 5, 11:31 am, phogl...@xxxxxx wrote:

On 5 maalis, 17:34, "Peter T. Daniels" <gramma...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
I am not trying to score points, as you usually are. I am only
pointing out a fact that might be significant.

"Prove a point" and "make a point" have nothing to do with "scoring a
point."

I am not entirely convinced that you know the difference yourself.

I've been speaking the language for nearly 55 years. You obviously
haven't.

You are quite right - I have spoken English habitually only during my
seven-months stay in Ireland some eight years ago. I have always found
English more like a code than a language - I read books in it, but I
don't really speak it. It is not a "language" for me, in the sense
that Irish, German, Swedish, or Amharic for that matter, is a
language. English is a necessary evil; but if you acquire a real
Language, you have accomplished something.

Shakespeare.

Need I go any further?

Yes, you need. I have never understood why you people make such a fuss
of him. I don't say some of his plays aren't interesting and well-
written, but even among English classics, Byron suits my temperament
better. Shakespeare? A skilled professional playwright, yes - but in
my opinion, the Shakespeare cult, for a non-native speaker of English,
is about as incomprehensible as the Pushkin cult in Russia.




Even though the Avestan alphabet was available to them several
centuries before the Arabic script.

It certainly was,. but if I am not very much mistaken, Middle Persian
(Pahlavi) used a script that represented vowels at least as
inadequately as the Arabic alphabet.

Oh, don't even go there. I doubt you have the slightest idea how
Pahlavi represents the Iranian languages it was used for.

You might be correct, because my knowledge of Pahlavi is limited to
seeing the alphabet a couple of times in reference works. It is not a
very widely known script after all.

Read Skjaervo's account in WWS. It's not exactly transparent, but he
doesn't seem able to write for the non-specialist. But there really
isn't anyone else who can write on these subjects at all --
fortunately (I suppose), he seems never to turn down an invitation to
cotribute to a reference work.

I guess I need to read it, then.

You mean, you've been pontificating about Pahlavi without having
learned _anything_ about it?

I do not think I have been "pontificating" about anything. I have some
idea of Pahlavi, and that is all there is to it - I gladly leave the
pontificating part to you, if you have something interesting to say,
or teach, about Pahlavi. I take it however that you are more keen on
poking fun at other people's ignorance than on disseminating
knowledge.

What would you like me to do, post the text of Skjaervo's article here
(minus the examples, of course)? I don't think the copyright owner
(Oxford University Press) would appreciate that.

You could post the full bibliographical data of what you regard as his
most important article, book, or paper.



I doubt I'll ever learn Middle
Persian, but Modern Persian is one of the languages I have started
years ago but never quite got on with them. (Irish used to be one,
too.)
I see. However, I would appreciate an elementary guidebook to writing
Amharic, which would show in what order the lines should be drawn.

Monica Devens showed me on a napkin in 5 minutes one day. Start at the
top left. See WWS p. 575.

At the top left? I'll have a go at it. Am I supposed to use a
paintbrush, or will a normal biro pen do the job?

You're "supposed" to use a pen. Do you know what a "paintbrush" is? Do
you suppose that the brush used for writing Chinese resembles a
"paintbrush" in anything other than having bristles mounted in a
handle?

I do not suppose anything, and I know "paintbrush" is probably not the
correct English word. The appearance of the characters does leave the
impression that the desired forms are only attainable by using some
kind of special calligraphic instrument.

It's called a "pen." Probably a reed pen.

A reed pen? Now we are talking.

Have you never even had any training in using a broadedge pen?

I am not entirely sure if the instrument I use for writing Irish
Gaelic script and German Black Letters is called a broadedge pen in
English. Would you be so kind as to give me a description of a
"broadedge pen"?

Its nib has a broad edge rather than a point. It can meet the paper at
any angle with respect to the baseline from 0 to 90 degrees. For
italic, the angle is typically 45 deg. For roman, 30 deg. For Irish
uncials and half-uncials, 10 deg. for blackletter, 20 deg. or so. For
Ethiopic, probably close to 0 deg.

Okay, it is the very tool.



It looks more
elegant and is easier to read, and I think it would be no problem to
modify the Arabic alphabet for use in Amharic. But of course, for
saying that you will call me a crypto-Muslim fundamentalist bigot.

No, your bigotry is exposed by such words as "crude," "unreadable,"
and non-"elegant."

People have these things called aesthetic preferences, and I very much
prefer the Arabic alphabet - for aesthetic reasons. But then I have
always been fascinated by calligraphy.

"Crude" and "unreadable" are not aesthetic judgments.

Please do not try to intimidate me. You know I am not afraid of you
anymore.-

Oh, you mean you don't know the meanings of the words "crude" and
"unreadable"? Then you shouldn't be using them.

Okay. Let's make it "difficult to read for the untrained eye"

Um, wouldn't that apply to any script in the world that you haven't
been "trained" in?

Not exactly. I am about as untrained in reading Georgian letters as in
reading Ethiopian writing, but I can guarantee that I find Georgian
letters more readable at this stage.

How unique of you.

Tastes differ.


BTW, Ethiopic script is often seen to be very similar to Armenian
script, even to the extent that it has been attributed to Armenian
missionaries, but since there is no resemblance in sound between
similar-looking letters, that makes no sense.

Again, I must agree with you. I happen to be intimately familiar with
Armenian script in the form that is used in the ex-Soviet republic of
Armenia.


and
"aesthetically somewhat less pleasing than Arabic calligraphy". Happy
now?-

Chacun a son gout. There's no tradition of rendering Ethiopic texts
unreadable for the sake of esthetic impression.

Calligraphy is not by definition the same as "rendering unreadable".-

Most Islamic calligraphy is not readily readable, and some resists all
attempts at interpretation.

You seem to have a more restricted definition of the concept of
"calligraphy" that I have.

.

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