Re: unnatural languages

In message <et2dtb$n0i@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Herman Rubin <hrubin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes
In article <oMxwWCEMCT8FFw6e@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
Richard Herring <richard.herring@xxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
In message <esproe$1r8a@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>, Herman Rubin
<hrubin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> writes
In article <1173354137.155781.136980@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
Jens S. Larsen <jens_s_larsen@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
Herman Rubin skribis:

Jens S. Larsen <jens_s_larsen@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
phoglund@xxxxxx:

I can see no reason why one needs to know a "natural language"
to learn a more structured one.

How do you suppose that the teacher is going to communicate with the
student, if they don't have some common means of communication?

Why cannot the common means be the structured language?

You are suggesting that teacher and student should communicate using the language _you_ are advocating, which the student doesn't yet know? And you don't perceive any difficulties with this approach?

Nor can I see a reason why
one needs to learn a natural language first.

Whether one "needs to learn" is irrelevant, since it's practically
impossible to stop a child acquiring (not "learning") the natural
language in its environment.

Why cannot the environmental language be structured?
That the present "natural languages" are not is no
hindrance; there are reasons to "start over", as
mathematics did in the late 16th century.

A modest proposal indeed! That would truly be a Language with a capital L. Whose army and navy will you use?


However, I can
see a reason why one needs to learn structure early, and the
earlier the better. Even good students who have learned
details have substantial difficulty in learning the concepts
in mathematics,

As a statistician, you may be qualified to make that observation...

and I suspect in language as well;

... but that's merely an uninformed opinion. Ne sutor ultra crepidam...

Not totally uninformed, having studied more than one
"foreign" language. In my generation, and also later,
students have been known to remark that they really
learned their English grammar by taking a grammar-
oriented foreign language course.

It's a truism, but so what? One doesn't need training in grammar to speak one's native language grammatically. Learning _about_ language and acquisition of a language are entirely different things.


there is
a strong opinion that children learn grammar (in the extended
sense of structure) early.

Acquire, not "learn".

A large proportion of those who
learned to read by the whole word method never mastered the
phonic use of the alphabet.

Learning to read is an activity quite distinct from language
acquisition.

The written language is quite important.

Where it exists. Many languages are not written at all.

In some languages,
the spoken language is far less clear than the written.

Which languages, and clear to whom? I bet the native speakers of those languages don't think they lack clarity.


In statistics, it is even worse,

What _is_ the phonic use of the alphabet in statistics?

There are three levels of language involved in statistics.

The immediate level is probability, which has its own
concepts, very poorly understood by those learning by
memorization and computation.

Not a language in the sense that linguists use the word.

The previous level is
that of the basic parts of algebra, set algebra, and
some analysis.

Not a language in the sense that linguists use the word.

And behind this is the language of
variables and basic mathematical communication, in
this highly structured language.

Not a language in the sense that linguists use the word.

As the language is essentially written only, and
pronounced differently by those using different
languages using their phonic patters, it does not
have a phonic use of the alphabet. Except for
explanatory material, its use of symbols is
independent of "natural" languages.

So "the phonic use of the alphabet in statistics" is an absurdity.

--
Richard Herring
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: M.I.T. = Overrated Academics
    ... Oooooh.....firing someone over grammar mistakes in a memo. ... Encouraging proper use of the language is important insofar as it ... simple mistakes generally don't interfere with the communication ...
    (rec.sport.football.college)
  • Re: The Commonly Confused Words Test
    ... There's a belief that language "correctness" is a Mandarin prerogative, ... Yep - language is just a tool for communication. ... Grammar is nothing but a communications protocol. ... Well that only serves to bolster my argument. ...
    (rec.sport.football.college)
  • Re: The Commonly Confused Words Test
    ... There's a belief that language "correctness" is a Mandarin prerogative, ... Yep - language is just a tool for communication. ... Grammar is nothing but a communications protocol. ... --Ralph Kennedy!ncar!noao!asuvax!kennedy ...
    (rec.sport.football.college)
  • Re: THE QUIZ...
    ... Calling others, and persuading them to help us in any which way, is the basic task of language. ... general definition of language as a basic phenomenon of life will free us from hair splitting in grammar school, allow us to assimilate stupend progresses made in biology, and lead toward a Golden Age of Linguistics. ... Chomsky's generative grammar is an alternative, not very practical, however. ... of communication among them; ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: Educating Language Gifted Students Questions
    ... In English, the word "sound" has the same meanings. ... similar examples that occur in his native language and the language ... - Have the student find foreign phrases that became idioms in English ...
    (uk.culture.language.english)
Loading