Re: intrinsic advantage of Latin alphabet over bopomofo (for Chinese)??

On Mar 24, 10:22 am, LEE Sau Dan <dan...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
"Peter" == Peter T Daniels <gramma...@xxxxxxxxxxx> writes:

>> It is? Could it not be that characters represent ideas instead
>> of words?

Peter> No. If that were so, then anyone who knew the "ideas"
Peter> represented by the characters (or by any other arbitrary
Peter> symbols) could use them as a "visible language."

I know what the characters mean, and this enables me to understand
news headlines on a Japanese newspaper -- even without any minute idea
of how those headlines are pronounced in Japanese.

No, you cannot understand them. You have a vague idea what they're
about.

Peter> Why must we continually remind you that mathematics is not
Peter> a human language, and writing is not a human language?
Peter> Writing _represents_ a language,

Writing can represent ideas.

No. Writing represents language, and ideas are (sometimes) expressed
with language.

Peter> so mathematical notation is not writing, either.

Using YOUR definition of "writing", of course.

The only one that makes sense. If you expand "writing" to cover all
visible communication, you still need a separate term for visible
communication that specifically records language, since it's a
distinctive case.

But that term already exists: "writing."

Peter> Mathematical notation is a semiotic system.

My Oxford dictionary has an entry for "semiotic:

semiotics n study of signs and symbols, esp in writing, and of what
they mean and how they are used.

Er... what does "esp in writing" here mean?

I haven't the slightest idea, as that's not how semioticians define
their field of study.

"Your Oxford dictionary" has no special status with regard to
technical terminology.

>> We have international highway signs; do those represent words,
>> or ideas? Does the sign warning about radioactivity represent
>> words?

Peter> They are ideograms. If the international highway signs are
Peter> uniform all across Eurasia, then they can be "read" by
Peter> every driver in their own language; hence, not writing.

But the drivers still need to learn what these signs mean.

Obviously. They learn what they mean, not that they stand for
particular words.

So, if East Asia decided to standard on highway signs using
Characters/Kanji/Hanza, those character would suddenly become
ideographs, because they can be "read" by every driver in those
nations, and foreigners will definitely attempt to learn what those
character mean?

No, foreigners would have to learn what the signs mean. Outside the
entire writing system, an individual character or two is useless.

Funny. What is an ideograph now depends on how many people can
understand its meaning (after learning). Then how come English
spellings aren't ideographic?

You have sometimes claimed to be a computer scientist. Yet this is an
example of what you consider logic?

Remember, you don't have to learn the English language to read English
road signs. You only need to memorize a few words. e.g. "EXIT". And
nothing prevents people not speaking English from recognizing such
words solely from the shapes, independent of any sounds or morphemes
of English. So, "EXIT" is ideographic? I think many Western tourists
in China/Japan for more than a few days have also acquired the ability
to recognize the "exit" signs by those 2 characters on such signs.
So, suddenly, these 2 character have become ideographs?

Nope. The sign is ideographic. The characters are just groups of
squiggles, and a sign with similar characters that was also near an
off-ramp and had an arrow on it would just as well signal an exit.

.

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