Re: intrinsic advantage of Latin alphabet over bopomofo (for Chinese)??

In article <1174814997.906361.251870@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>,
Jens S. Larsen <jens_s_larsen@xxxxxxxx> wrote:
LEE Sau Dan:

"Peter" == Peter T Daniels <grammatim@xxxxxxxxxxx> writes:
Peter> Writing _represents_ a language,
>> Writing can represent ideas.

Peter> No. Writing represents language, and ideas are (sometimes)
Peter> expressed with language.

Writing represents ideas.
Language expresses ideas.

So, writing can be used to represent language.

I guess it boils down to the question whether there can be a direct
link from ideas to writing:

ideas -> writing

or if language has to be inserted in the line:

ideas -> language -> writing.

However, language and speech is not the same thing. One must ask if
there isn't a third possibility:

ideas -> language -> speech -> writing.

Then again, there is a difference between orthography and phonetic
notation. Perhaps the picture looks more like this:

ideas -> language -> speech
| |
V V
orthography phonetic notation

The less dependent the orthography is to the way the words are
actually spoken, the more immediately it reflects the ideas. Therefore
experienced readers read whole words or even several words at once,
rather than spelling through them.

Of course phonetic notation can only come from
sounds, but not necessarily from speech. Musical
notation is extremely phonetic.

Peter> The only one that makes sense. If you expand "writing" to
Peter> cover all visible communication, you still need a separate
Peter> term for visible communication that specifically records
Peter> language, since it's a distinctive case.

Peter> But that term already exists: "writing."

Then, what word do you suggest others to use when writing mathematical
formulae, musical scores, etc.?

That would be "notation", as used several times already. Musical notes
seem to be quite analogous to phonetic notation: You put down signs
that echo sound as closely as possible. Mathematics is sometimes
described as a language, but that's misleading; mathematical formulae
bypass language and therefore can't be used to express what's only
inside the note-taker's head, as language does.

Where do you think handwritten or typed mathematical
formulas come from, if not from inside the writer's head?
Of course machines can also produce them, as they can also
produce written words, but in both cases given suitable
instructions.


>> So, if East Asia decided to standard on highway signs using
>> Characters/Kanji/Hanza, those character would suddenly become
>> ideographs, because they can be "read" by every driver in those
>> nations, and foreigners will definitely attempt to learn what
>> those character mean?

Peter> No, foreigners would have to learn what the signs
Peter> mean.

Even if they wanted to drive there, and the only signs there were
those character-based signs?

It's not different from a P used to denote a parking lot, an
exclamation sign to denote an unspecified danger, or (in Germany) an H
to denote a busstop. That's what you turn to when there's no shape
that would render the idea clearly.

What is an ideograph? It is a written symbol descriptive
of an idea; the use of single letters to represent ideas
makes them ideographs.

It is unclear as to what part of speech a variable is,
as it can represent anything. But until recently, the
only way of writing variables was using single letters,
and I have only seen Greek and Latin letters used for
such. This is language; except for "window dressing"
and a small introduction, all mathematics could, in
principle, be done using variables and a few constant
symbols, with a rigid grammar. The use of "mathematical
notation" in other branches of human activity would
greatly add to clarity and comprehension, because of
its simplicity and brevity.




--
This address is for information only. I do not claim that these views
are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University.
Herman Rubin, Department of Statistics, Purdue University
hrubin@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx Phone: (765)494-6054 FAX: (765)494-0558
.

Relevant Pages

  • Re: Is this math test too easy?
    ... think when they think about language. ... >> notation that is completely and universally unambiguous, ... >> to brag about how precise mathematics is. ... >used for integration. ...
    (sci.math)
  • Re: _Verum Et Factum Convertuntur_ (or: Surprised By Syntax)
    ... >>>I still don't know what you mean by 'mathematical language'. ... >>>Mathematical notation isn't language, and the language you use to talk ... >> to understand the syntax of mathematics is quite small. ... it does not have semantics. ...
    (sci.lang)
  • Re: intrinsic advantage of Latin alphabet over bopomofo (for Chinese)??
    ... notation is extremely phonetic. ... Peter> cover all visible communication, ... Peter> language, ... relevant to mathematical notation, or to mathematics? ...
    (sci.lang)
  • [LogoForum] Re: Why teach LOGO
    ... I want to try to convince other math teachers of the validity of teaching LOGO to middle school age children. ... he positied follow-up questions such as teaching Logo compared to another computer language, teaching programming and selecting Logo as the particular programming language to use, etc. ... An issue which came to my mind a few years back had to do with the unlearning of what is learned via learning Logo if one attempts to learn Scheme/Lisp (which use a prefix notation) or, say, Forth or mathematical Sigma notation. ... If one is qua IS a mathematics teacher ...
    (comp.lang.logo)
  • Re: All languages are equally fit
    ... But you have no way of expressing those ... Peter> ideas but through language. ... >> 2) Structurally, I'm using infix notation. ...
    (sci.lang)