Re: Anyone conversant in Tagalog here?

On 17 Apr 2007 03:17:58 -0700, phoglund@xxxxxx wrote:


Padraic Brown wrote:
On 16 Apr 2007 03:26:48 -0700, phoglund@xxxxxx wrote:

English has long ago ceased to belong to native speakers alone. It's
us - the second-language speakers - who will set the standards from
now on, not them. We outnumber them.

Could be -- but the misuses of ESL users won't become Standard. They
will always be the subject of how _not_ to use the language.

You are being very unrealistic now, my friend. The language will
become increasingly tolerant of irrelevant solecisms which do not
impair the mutual understanding - such forms as "runned" and
"teached", for instance. Eventually they will become standard, and
"run" and "taught" will pass into obsolescence.

Not so long as standard English remains the standard of the language.
If you write, in say a work presentation for your job or in a
scientific paper such obivous errors, you'll be seen as an ignoramus.
And your editor will seen as a boob for not protecting you from such
obvious mistakes.

If you're happy being continually misunderstood and degraded as an
ignorant and uneducated foreigner, then be our guest! If I were to
visit Finland, I would make an honest attempt to learn some Finnish,
and would graciously accept correction by native speakers. If Finnish
ever became the dominant language in the world, I would understand
that it is important to learn it properly.

You are missing the point. I - and the rest of global second-language
speakers of English - am not in the position of a guest in an
Anglophone country.

Then you misunderstand what "be our guest" means. It's not to be taken
in the literal sense.

I am making use of English as a global auxiliary
language on the Internet, and the majority here are people like me.

As are we all. As such, you are agreeing to use the standard language
in a sensible fashion. That I can understand you when you make a
mistake is fortunate for you. Take it as a matter of pride that you
have a native level of competence -- how many native English speakers
can claim such a feat in Finnish!? Take your corrections as small
learning experiences that will continually perfect your L2. Never
assume that YOU are the sole arbiter of what is good English. While
English is certainly a world langauge and has many local (and oftern
horrendously bastardised) versions, they are not to be mistaken for
Standard English.

In
a sense, I am not visiting your country - you are at least as much
visiting mine. I do not need to accept instruction or correction from
anybody here -

Well, yes you do. We might both be visitiors to Usenet, but you're
still using English, and it has its rules and norms. When you vary
from those norms, it is considered an error. Errors are subject to
correction. That you are too proud to mend your vagabondery is no
fault or concern of mine and no insult to the language. You've only
demonstrated that you're a foreign boob.

the Internet is mine no less than yours, and I am no
less instrumental in setting the future standards of this variety of
English than you are.

Sure. The standard is already set, though. Neither you nor I had
anything to do with the setting of that standard. We can affect only
the common or colloquial registers of the language.

For example, though I can't do it with the keyboard I'm using at
present, I have in the past taken to the Dutch practice of using
accent marks to indicate word stress. I think that thìs looks much
more elegant than _this_ or THIS or *this* as a means of indicating
focus in this otherwise dry forum. A good example of a foreign
practice informing and influencing colloquial internet English. This
doesn't mean the practice will become _standard_, however.

This attitude of mine will eventually prevail among Internet users,
and you will be left in the minority.

You'll still be a ignorant foreigner who can't use the language
properly. As I said before: be our guest!

I don't really think I am doing
anything else than stating a fact. You might see our variety of
English as debased,

Of course not -- it's just one of many _colloquial_ forms of the
language.

inferiour, or pidginised; but eventually, it will
be the only show in town, if English survives as a globally dominant
language.

The same would doubtlessly apply to Finnish, if it were in a dominant
position in the world.

No, it wouldn't. It would never be anything other than a colloquial
and nonstandard variant.

Padraic

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