Re: Help with family name, please

John Atkinson <johnacko@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:1eY2i.677$wH4.436@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kriha@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote...
John Atkinson <johnacko@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote...
"John Atkinson" <johnacko@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote...
"John Atkinson" johnacko@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote...
"Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kriha@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote...
Brian M. Scott <b.scott@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote...
John Atkinson <johnacko@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote:
"Judy Bolton" <jbolton@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote...

My maternal grandmother's side is Venezky, originally
Winnitzky
or
something close > to that. Could someone please tell me the
meaning of Winnitz? It it a place or...?

My atlas tells me there's a city called Vinnitsa in Ukraine, a
couple
of hundred km SW of Kiyev. Is it possible that the family
came
from there?
[...]
The "-ky" ("-sky") looks like a common Slavic adjectiviser.
For example, a person originally from Moskva is likely to be
called Moskovsky, Moskevsky, or similar.
[...]
Presumably that city Vinnitsa in Ukraine actually means
"vineyard"?

Google doesn't support the idea that the Vinnytsia Oblast (often
called the "Vinnitsky region" in English) produces much wine.

But there seems little doubt that the name derives from wine:

"Vinnytsya (vynnytsa | vinica | vinnytsia):

City in Vinnytsa Oblast. The first mention refers to 1363 when it was
a
Lithuanian fortress. The name is connected with Old Russian word
"vino"
(wine) - ransom, dowry. ...."

(http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/ua-vin.html)

J.

Oh, yuck. I would not trust that page at all, John.

I don't believe "vino" and "ve^no" are cognates.

"vino" (vine/wine/winegrapes) is (probably) an old old borrowing
from the Romance.

Yes, that's pretty obvious.

:-) yes it is, isn't it.

My emphasis was on "old old". There are several related oldish
words derived from "-vino-" that have something to do with the way
the vine sprouts and twists while growing but not much with
"wine/winegrapes" as such. That's what suggests to me that the
original borrowing might be reasonably ancient if not ex-PIE.


"ve^no" "vyeno" "veno" (dowry/gift/marriage portion/jointure/
dedication/inscription) is an Old Slavic word with PIE provenance.
It's still higly productive today.

OK, here we go. In Ukrainian, Slavic "e^" becomes [i] (written <і>),
while Slavic "i" becomes [y] (written <и>). Thus "wine" is spelt Винo
in both Russian and Ukrainian (but pronounced differently), while
"dowry" is Вeнo [v'eno] in Russian, but Вiнo [vino] in Ukrainian. That
is, "dowry" in Ukrainian is pronounced the same as "wine" in
(non-akanie) Russian. Confusing, no?

Right. That's what happens when pronunciation/spelling of two
or more disimilar words start merging into one, like "rare" and "rare" :-)
One has to step farther away from Ukrainian to another Slavic
language group to see what really happened.

It seems that the Vinnytsia community officials are unwilling
to pay attention to what Vasmer (that dreadful Ruski) is telling
them. Perhaps, if they looked it up in Slovak, just next door,
it might get them thinking why is it that "dowry" and "vine" are
two such different words.


As for the city, it's spelled Вінниця (transliterated Vinnytsia) in
Ukrainian, but Винница (transliterated Vinnitsa) in Russian.

The Ukrainian form suggests to me that it does indeed derive from
"dowry", rather than "wine".

It does look very much like it.


If there is no history of growing winegrapes in that Oblast

They do grow some grapes there, but the big Ukrainian wine-growing area
is further south, near Odessa, I believe.

And that is already dreadful enough.
(whoops, sorry about such non-PC remark. I just finished half-bottle
of 1999 Chassagne-Montrachet and couldn't help myself making
this totally OT comment)

and
if the region was given/received as a dowry or gift the "veno"
could be the real origin of the name rather than "vino".

The locals themselves seem a bit hazy about the whole business. From
the Vinnitsa Community Profile in the City Strategic Plan:

At the start, Vinnitsa was linked to Fedir Koriatovytch, Olgelgard’s
nephew. In 1363, he founded a castle"At the start, Vinnitsa was linked
to Fedir Koriatovitch, [Lithuanian Prince]
on a steep hill a bit further from the place where the River Vinnytchka
(the River Buh’s tributary) falls in the Buh. The name “Vinnytsya”
appears in the document signed in Krakiv on June 13, 1385 by King
Vladyslav Yagelo. From among a whole plethora of theories the most
accurate seem to be those which draw on such versions: Vinnytsya may
stand for a “winery” where wine used to be made; an old "vno" which
means “dowry” that the Koriatovytchs obtained, and the third one is: the
city was named after the River Vinnytchka. The Golden Horde warriors
were not satisfied with what was going on in the At the start, Vinnitsa
was linked to Fedir Koriatovytch, Olgelgard’s nephew. In 1363, he
founded a castleon a steep hill a bit further from the place where the
River Vinnytchka (the River Buh’s tributary) falls in the Buh. The name
“Vinnytsya” appears in the document signed in Krakiv on June 13, 1385 by
King Vladyslav Yagelo. From among a whole plethora of theories the most
accurate seem to be those which draw on such versions: Vinnytsya may
stand for a “winery” where wine used to be made; an old "vno" which
means “dowry” that the Koriatovytchs obtained, and the third one is: the
city was named after the River Vinnytchka. The Golden Horde warriors
were not satisfied with what was going on in the Olgelgard's nephew. In
1363, he founded a castle on a steep hill a bit further from the place
where the river Vinnyttchka (the River Buh's tributary) falls in the
Buh. The name "Vinnytsya" appears in a document signed in Krakiv on
June 13, 1385 by King Vladyslav Yagelo. From a whole plethora of
theories the most accurate seem to be those which draw on such versions:
Vinnytsya may stand for a "winery" where wine used to be made; an old
"vno" which means dowry that the Koriatoytchs obtained; and the third
one is: the city was named after the River Vinnytchka."
John.

Well at least this text is more honest than what I saw before.
They admit, they don't really know for sure.
pjk


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