Re: Help with family name, please

On May 19, 4:42 am, "Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>
wrote:
John Atkinson <johna...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message

news:Ime3i.1189$wH4.756@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx



"Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote...
John Atkinson <johna...@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote...
"Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kr...@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote...

I don't believe "vino" and "ve^no" are cognates.

"vino" (vine/wine/winegrapes) is (probably) an old old borrowing
from the Romance.

Yes, that's pretty obvious.

:-) yes it is, isn't it.

My emphasis was on "old old". There are several related oldish
words derived from "-vino-" that have something to do with the way
the vine sprouts and twists while growing but not much with
"wine/winegrapes" as such. That's what suggests to me that the
original borrowing might be reasonably ancient if not ex-PIE.

PIE *woinom. Mallory and Adams ("Oxford Intro to PIE") say "it may
derive from the verbal root *wei(h)- 'twist'..."

Hm, so it could conceivably be in Slavic all the way since PIE.
E.g. Cz "vinouti" to twist, to plait.



"ve^no" "vyeno" "veno" (dowry/gift/marriage portion/jointure/
dedication/inscription) is an Old Slavic word with PIE provenance.

On p 208, M&A derive it from PIE *wedmo/eh- 'bride-price' (cognate with
OE witumo, Grk hednon). On p 272, they derive it from *wes-no-
'purchase', cognate with Lat ve:num, Arm gin, Skt vasna, Grk onos, where
*wes- is 'buy'. They don't seem to notice that they've contradicted
themselves. It's a really interesting book, and I'm glad I got it, but
it does seem to have more than its fair share of careless errors.

It's still highly productive today.

OK, here we go. In Ukrainian, Slavic "e^" becomes [i] (written <і>),
while Slavic "i" becomes [y]

(No. Phonetically it's between [e] and [@], unrounded, and much more
front and open than the Russian Ы, which is [i"]. Both are
_transliterated_ as <y>.)

written <и>). Thus "wine" is spelt Винo
in both Russian and Ukrainian (but pronounced differently), while
"dowry" is Вeнo [v'eno] in Russian, but Вiнo [v'ino] in Ukrainian.
That
is, "dowry" in Ukrainian is pronounced the same as "wine" in
(non-akanie) Russian.

(That's not quite accurate. "Wine" is stressed on the second syllable,
"dowry" on the first, no?)

Confusing, no?

Right. That's what happens when pronunciation/spelling of two
or more disimilar words start merging into one, like "rare" and "rare"
:-)
One has to step farther away from Ukrainian to another Slavic
language group to see what really happened.

It seems that the Vinnytsia community officials are unwilling
to pay attention to what Vasmer (that dreadful Ruski)

A good Slavic name!

is telling
them. Perhaps, if they looked it up in Slovak, just next door,
it might get them thinking why is it that "dowry" and "vine" are
two such different words.

Do tell. What does Slovak do with them?

I presume, more or less the same as Czech.
"víno" = vine/wine
"věno" = dowry

"í" and "ě" are not only different vowels. The "í" is long,
while "ě" is short. The lenght matters, it's phonemic.

There are many words related to either "víno" or "věno".
Their meanings don't seem to overlap which suggests
to me that historically speaking they have been applied
to semantically separate concepts.



As for the city, it's spelled Вінниця (transliterated Vinnytsia) in
Ukrainian, but Винница (transliterated Vinnitsa) in Russian.

The Ukrainian form suggests to me that it does indeed derive from
"dowry", rather than "wine".

It does look very much like it.

If there is no history of growing winegrapes in that Oblast

They do grow some grapes there, but the big Ukrainian wine-growing
area is further south, near Odessa, I believe.

And that is already dreadful enough.
(whoops, sorry about such non-PC remark. I just finished half-bottle
of 1999 Chassagne-Montrachet and couldn't help myself making
this totally OT comment)

Bloody snob. Isn't your local Nelson plonk good enough for you?

How dare you. :-)
They don't make *plonk* in Marlborough!
Be careful what you say here, some younger
members of my family hail from Nelson.

Only now and then I purchase a good bottle of CdP
Vieux Télégraphe or a CM burgundy from Burgogne.
A bottle of good French vino is about three times the
price of a good kiwi one. After I finish it I go back to
the local (kiwi or oz) stuff for a while being happy in
the knowledge that it wasn't three times better.
pjk

and
if the region was given/received as a dowry or gift the "veno"
could be the real origin of the name rather than "vino".

The locals themselves seem a bit hazy about the whole business. From
the Vinnitsa Community Profile in the City Strategic Plan:

"At the start, Vinnitsa was linked to Fedir Koriatovitch,
[Lithuanian
Prince] Olgelgard's nephew. In 1363, he founded a castle on a steep
hill ..."

[...]

J.

The word 'veno' comes from from 'venac' (Russ. венец corona, jointure;
Serb. venčanje marriage, venčanica bride's robe; also beam, girder
that connects two opposite walls); i.e. the word venac sprung from the
Bel-Gon basis: Serbian uvinuti se (wind), pognuti se (bend, form
curve; Ger. beugen); cf. Serbian 'vezati' bind, veza bond...

I hope you are intelligent enough to understand that 'vino' (wine) and
' veno' (dowry) have nothing in common except the fact that they
appeared from the same BelGon womb ;-)

DV

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