Re: Help with family name, please

John Atkinson <johnacko@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote in message
news:PDy3i.1540$wH4.1494@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx
"Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kriha@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote ...
John Atkinson <johnacko@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote...
"Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kriha@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote...
John Atkinson <johnacko@xxxxxxxxxxx> wrote...
"Paul J Kriha" <paul.nospam.kriha@xxxxxxxxxxxxxxx> wrote...

I don't believe "vino" and "ve^no" are cognates.
[...]
OK, here we go. In Ukrainian, Slavic "e^" becomes [i] (written
<і>),
while Slavic "i" becomes [y]

(No. Phonetically it's between [e] and [@], unrounded, and much more
front and open than the Russian Ы, which is [i"]. Both are
_transliterated_ as <y>.)

written <и>). Thus "wine" is spelt Винo
in both Russian and Ukrainian (but pronounced differently), while
"dowry" is Вeнo [v'eno] in Russian, but Вiнo [v'ino] in Ukrainian.
That
is, "dowry" in Ukrainian is pronounced the same as "wine" in
(non-akanie) Russian.

(That's not quite accurate. "Wine" is stressed on the second
syllable,
"dowry" on the first, no?)

[...]

Do tell. What does Slovak do with them?

I presume, more or less the same as Czech.
"víno" = vine/wine
"věno" = dowry

"í" and "ě" are not only different vowels. The "í" is long,
while "ě" is short. The lenght matters, it's phonemic.

In OCS, they're the same length, I think. (I guess in OCS you could say
that all vowels are "long" except the yers.) But "ě" is more open than
"e" -- [&], perhaps. So it's sort of interesting that it's "ě" [&] that
turns into [i] in Ukrainian, while "e" [e] remains [e].

(Ok, that "turns into" is probably not accurate. Proto-ESlav would no
doubt have split off back when the precursors of OCS "e" and "ě" were
still distinguished by intonation, not openness)

For that matter, it's interesting that in Czech (with phonemic length
but not stress), the first vowel of "wine" is long,

In the noun nominative it is. However, to further complicate the
story it gets shortened in some derived words.
E.g. "vinná réva" (vine bush or specifically winegrapes) has
a short "i". And so does "vinice" (vineyards).

while the first vowel of "dowry" is short.
Yes, its a very short CCV syllable [vje] in <věno>.

While in Russian (and, presumably, Ukr and
OCS) (with phonemic stress but not length), the first syllable of
"dowry" is stressed, while the first syllable of "wine" isn't. Long
<--> unstressed, short <--> stressed.

BTW, the vowels in "wine" and "dowry" don't merge in any one language,
as you seem to be saying in your comparison to "rare".

I shouldn't have implied that. I think I was thinking of the future
of these words in Ukraine. Here were the Ukrainian town
clerks already implying that "Winnitzya" was related to "dowry"
"ransom" as well as "wine" and "vine".

Sure we don't know which of the two lots it is, but it can be
related only to one of them, "dowry" or "vine", not both, I believe.

pjk

In Russian
they're [i] and [e] resp, in Ukrainian [@] and [i]. The only "overlap"
is that the Russian "wine" vowel is the same as the Ukrainian "dowry"
vowel (phonetically -- and also in the standard transliterations -- but
not in untransliterated cyrillic).

There are many words related to either "víno" or "věno".
Their meanings don't seem to overlap which suggests
to me that historically speaking they have been applied
to semantically separate concepts.

[...]

John.


.

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